Should I worry about overdoing it?

Eric SVL

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I'm considering thick bass traps in the corners. Specifically the GIK Soffit traps, which I was put onto by Matthew's recent posts, and others, on the topic.

Backing up a little, I use dual subs to actively correct my frequency response from 0-100Hz. It's the 100-300Hz range that my room could use some help with, as well as overall decay times. I do use EQ, but wouldn't these traps help further smooth out the response? It's my understanding that the corners build up bass energy and that's where you should use thick absorption to help with modes and reduce decay times. Room is a rectangular bedroom of dimensions 17L x 10.5W x 8H.

I've already cleaned up the source signal significantly by using servo-controlled subs set to high damping. So, there is already low ringing from the source. There is a lot of tactility in the bass and it is not boomy at all. Is it possible that by adding bass traps I could end up overdamped and unhappy with the sound? Or would the mic hear the difference and just apply a little less EQ? I know at this point some would ask for waterfall graphs, etc, but what are your general thoughts? I can do some measurements if requested.
 

ddude003

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Since we are talking in general terms and there is no indication of how many of these Soffit traps are being installed in the small room, it is possible to overdo it... And my thinking is that several of these devices placed in the corners will only help to tame the energy lighting up the room...

If you are worried that you will be unhappy with the sound add two at a time... If you think it made a positive impact on your room/system... Then add two more... Rinse and repeat...

My own philosophy is to tune the room (absorption and diffusion) then the system (eq)...
 

Eric SVL

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Thanks.

In general, if you have a room with 4 corners, and you have 4 bass traps, will the effect be similar whether you place 1 in each corner vs all 4 in one corner, floor-to-ceiling? Sorry for the newbie questions. This is something I want to get into.
 

ddude003

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Generally speaking, if your room is symmetrical and your speakers are aligned to a "front" wall, you would be better served with traps in the corners of that "front" wall floor to ceiling... Next choice would be in all four corners... You can measure the energy in each corner and other areas of the room to determine where the "hot spots" are and place the traps there if the room is asymmetrical or have other factors to consider...

For you consideration: http://arqen.com/bass-traps-101/placement-guide gives a good treatment of the subject... And I have no relation to/with the company or its products...
 
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Eric SVL

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That makes sense, as the waves reaching the back of the room having reduced in level by the square of the distance. I'll take a look at the link, thanks.
 

Eric SVL

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Thinking logically, I think what I'll do is start with a new set of measurements and find where my decay times are the worst. Then, I'll focus my attention on bass traps that have the appropriate "profile". By that, I mean I can judge whether I need serious trapping at the lowest frequencies, or a more even absorption to bring things in line. If the idea is to achieve decay times that are similar across all frequencies, decay measurements combined with graphs like these would be very informative in guiding you to ensure you are not under-or-over-doing it.

abs-megatrap.gif

RAL-Sound-Absorption-Report-Soffit.jpg

abs-comp.gif
 

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Jumping into this late, but in the vast majority of closed rooms you will never have too much absorption below ~300Hz. The concern comes more from ending up with an imbalance of high frequency absorption in the process of attacking the rest of the range. By and large, the front and rear of the room is where thick treatments are of great benefit. It is much more practical to combat width modes through multiple subwoofer placement, while your LCR speakers and front subwoofers are all subject to the similar front-to-back interactions.
 

Eric SVL

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Jumping into this late, but in the vast majority of closed rooms you will never have too much absorption below ~300Hz.
Thanks, Mark. I'm going to start with thick traps in the front corners and move to the back once those are filled. I'm covered up to 100Hz with my 2 subs but around the crossover region I start having issues.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Thanks, Mark. I'm going to start with thick traps in the front corners and move to the back once those are filled. I'm covered up to 100Hz with my 2 subs but around the crossover region I start having issues.

Hi Eric, So I totally missed this exchange, but I think you got great advice from Mark. What he says is right on, the general view is that in small spaces (acoustically all domestic spaces are typically small), we can never have enough LF absorption. You want some reflections in the mids and highs, but if you had a nearly anechoic space at LF's, that wouldn't be so bad. I won't go into this much, it's better for another topic, but....there is a reason to keep certain specific LF reflections between 80hz and 500hz in place, as they impact our perception of spaciousness.

My suggestion around bass traps is to use as many as possible of the biggest ones you can, but not to use a lot of broadband absorption. I tend to speak out of both sides of my mouth on this topic, which get's confusing, but I use RT60 measurements, even though I think they are theoretically wrong, as a means of judging how I handle a rooms broadband treatment. One one hand, they aren't very accurate, especially when you have noise mics, noisy rooms, and they are physically small. This leads to inaccurate estimates. On the other hand, if you can address those problems and know what to look for, use something like EDT and TOPT, you can get a good enough approximation of the decay of a room. What I look for is a balance, and I target decay rates in the neighborhood of .5 seconds for music only rooms and .3-.5 seconds for movie rooms. I vary those targets by the size of the room, the larger the room, the higher the number we want/accept. That means that sometimes (though rarely) I might use a broadband absorber bass trap if I generally need to bring down the RT60. I also might use a faced panel with an MLS or other pattern to try to target a peak of absorption both down low and in some midrange area, but keep HF absorption low.

GIK's panels are available in a LF restricted version, so that is why I promote them. I like their bass traps for that reason.

How are things going so far?
 

Eric SVL

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Hi Eric, So I totally missed this exchange, but I think you got great advice from Mark. What he says is right on, the general view is that in small spaces (acoustically all domestic spaces are typically small), we can never have enough LF absorption. You want some reflections in the mids and highs, but if you had a nearly anechoic space at LF's, that wouldn't be so bad. I won't go into this much, it's better for another topic, but....there is a reason to keep certain specific LF reflections between 80hz and 500hz in place, as they impact our perception of spaciousness.

My suggestion around bass traps is to use as many as possible of the biggest ones you can, but not to use a lot of broadband absorption. I tend to speak out of both sides of my mouth on this topic, which get's confusing, but I use RT60 measurements, even though I think they are theoretically wrong, as a means of judging how I handle a rooms broadband treatment. One one hand, they aren't very accurate, especially when you have noise mics, noisy rooms, and they are physically small. This leads to inaccurate estimates. On the other hand, if you can address those problems and know what to look for, use something like EDT and TOPT, you can get a good enough approximation of the decay of a room. What I look for is a balance, and I target decay rates in the neighborhood of .5 seconds for music only rooms and .3-.5 seconds for movie rooms. I vary those targets by the size of the room, the larger the room, the higher the number we want/accept. That means that sometimes (though rarely) I might use a broadband absorber bass trap if I generally need to bring down the RT60. I also might use a faced panel with an MLS or other pattern to try to target a peak of absorption both down low and in some midrange area, but keep HF absorption low.

GIK's panels are available in a LF restricted version, so that is why I promote them. I like their bass traps for that reason.

How are things going so far?
Well Matthew, I planned on doing the GIK Soffit Traps in the corners to start based on the prior advice that I can't have too much absorption, but I'm hesitant given your statements here. Should we start with measurements?
 

Matthew J Poes

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Well Matthew, I planned on doing the GIK Soffit Traps in the corners to start based on the prior advice that I can't have too much absorption, but I'm hesitant given your statements here. Should we start with measurements?

Taking measurements first is always a good idea. If nothing else it gives you a baseline.

However I didn’t mean to scare you off from this.

The Soffit traps are a great option. Just get the range limiter if you like. It’s something you cant go wrong with. Measurements are still good though. Sorry if I added confusion.
 

Eric SVL

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Taking measurements first is always a good idea. If nothing else it gives you a baseline.

However I didn’t mean to scare you off from this.

The Soffit traps are a great option. Just get the range limiter if you like. It’s something you cant go wrong with. Measurements are still good though. Sorry if I added confusion.
How does one choose the range? Simply by determining where you need absorption most? I guess that would make sense.

I think the reason I paused at your comment was because earlier sentiment had me feeling pretty confident that I couldn't over-do it - but you suggest a more targeted approach than by stacking the corners with broadband traps.

Because we don't yet have a normalization feature for the waterfall and spectrogram in REW, I need to get frequency response flat before I can compare decay times. Am I thinking correctly about this?
 

Matthew J Poes

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How does one choose the range? Simply by determining where you need absorption most? I guess that would make sense.

I think the reason I paused at your comment was because earlier sentiment had me feeling pretty confident that I couldn't over-do it - but you suggest a more targeted approach than by stacking the corners with broadband traps.

Because we don't yet have a normalization feature for the waterfall and spectrogram in REW, I need to get frequency response flat before I can compare decay times. Am I thinking correctly about this?

Flatness isn’t important for decay, just don’t use waterfall. Use actual measures of decay and Wavelet spectrograms. Both display the energy decay over time more usefully. Personally I think Wavelets are the best option. I’ve been really into them lately.

Also consider looking at filtered impulse responses. I find these helpful for hunting down issues. For example, I noticed a lot of rooms had a similar double impulse shape at around 200-300hz. I could see it in every impulse response I looked at. Didn’t take long to realize that matched a ceiling reflection. Most rooms have similar heights and similar construction. Hence why it always showed up. I confirmed it was treatable when I noticed it was weaker in a room with an acoustic false ceiling (and made it disapear after treating that ceiling). If you watch my videos you can see reference to this.
 

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My approach has always been similar to what Matt and Mark have suggested, you can't have too much LF absorption. starting with front wall and corners....
 

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In my last house we made bass traps in all 4 corner floor to ceiling, and also 9" (I think it was 9 but it could have been 12) of Roxul for the entire rear wall. Definitely helped the bass!
 

j.man1503

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I certainly think that it is possible to overdue it. As with anything, what you're looking for is "good enough" as you can keep on scrutinizing the acoustics (or any other area, for that matter) without ever finishing. Some think this is the virtue of building yourself, as the project is never ending and therefore, tweaking will always continue. I like to have an end point and be able to say to myself, "I'm finished with this project, enjoy!" In general, I think bass traps are always welcome in the corners and some side treatments (I like diffusion, absorbers work too) to account for flutter echo, etc.
 

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Pro Control Rooms can have up to 60% or so of the room volume occupied by treatment, the biggest proportion being bass traps.
I would have no doubts whatsoever in treating the four vertical corners floor to ceiling. By all means include 'Range Limiter' reflecting wood. A Cloud
and Side Reflection Absorbers, no brainer. No laths or other reflectors, absorption only. Deep Back Wall absorption, covered in laths etc. up to say 70% area if you really want to hear some liveliness preserved.
DD
 

Matthew J Poes

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Pro Control Rooms can have up to 60% or so of the room volume occupied by treatment, the biggest proportion being bass traps.
I would have no doubts whatsoever in treating the four vertical corners floor to ceiling. By all means include 'Range Limiter' reflecting wood. A Cloud
and Side Reflection Absorbers, no brainer. No laths or other reflectors, absorption only. Deep Back Wall absorption, covered in laths etc. up to say 70% area if you really want to hear some liveliness preserved.
DD

I think it’s even fair to argue that in a fully engineered custom built control room, 100% of it is treated. While I don’t design many of these, the projects I’ve been a part of involved engineering the shell of the room as a treatment itself. It’s the same approach i use in custom consumer rooms. The treatment however is very specifically engineered to address the problems without introducing new ones. In small mixing rooms it’s often desirable to mix in a nearly anechoic environment. People seem to be ok with it being dead. In a lot of mastering rooms for 2 channel, the desire seems to be to preserve a more natural acoustic feel. In many ways you make a room that is an ideal version of a consumer listening room. The few I’ve worked on needed to maintain natural reverberation. Even in the bass, we didn’t absorb all bass reflections as some are critical to our sense of spaciousness and the envelopment. Instead we reduce the destruct ones and we eliminate the unnecessary ones. Namely I design a ceiling that can absorb nearly 100% of the vertical LF reflections (but not mid/high frequencies necessarily). We strongly reduce the length reflections, especially the front wall behind he monitors if not soffit mounted. However we leave side walls largely alone, with only very low frequency absorption. This leave lateral reflections in place.

In a room I see no reason not to do the same thing, it’s just as desirable. It’s just not as easy to do. Not many people are comfortable building a room from scratch for sound.
 

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The Professional Scenario is an utter mess IMO. These days, most, and especially the so called 'best' currently do their best to create an anechoic path from speaker to ear. Newell. His clone regularly achieves below 100mS down to the lowest LF.
Others do the opposite, Bogic Petrovic. Many others do something in between, with lots of reflections from the Side Walls, but angled to send HF well away from the ear.
Some designers, including one of the so called 'best' aggressively argues that absolutely flat response is optimal. This could not be further from a typical listeners room, which has 1dB per octave LF up tilt.
But it remains the case that small rooms cannot accommodate deep enough LF trapping. There are very expensive solutions such as Modex and PSI Active.
DD
 

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The Professional Scenario is an utter mess IMO. These days, most, and especially the so called 'best' currently do their best to create an anechoic path from speaker to ear. Newell. His clone regularly achieves below 100mS down to the lowest LF.
Others do the opposite, Bogic Petrovic. Many others do something in between, with lots of reflections from the Side Walls, but angled to send HF well away from the ear.
Some designers, including one of the so called 'best' aggressively argues that absolutely flat response is optimal. This could not be further from a typical listeners room, which has 1dB per octave LF up tilt.
But it remains the case that small rooms cannot accommodate deep enough LF trapping. There are very expensive solutions such as Modex and PSI Active.
DD

DanDan this encompasses so many different issues, as you well know, and a lot of what up discuss actually highlight the real problem. When I took courses on acoustics, we studied classic control room/mastering room design. We studied people like Newell. The view at two different Universities in which I took courses (Purdue and Univ. of Illinois Urbana Champaign) was that many of the early folks and the designs they espoused were based largely on bad science and bad ideas. Not everything of course, but much of what was held as critical was based around thinking that didn’t have a lot of sound science behind it. Worse yet was some was based on science for which a full understanding of the psychoacoustics was not understood and so bad designs evolved around them (the dangers of early reflections for example). Newell is actually more of a contemporary designer and his ideas make a lot of sense in modern studios where multichannel virtual environment mixing prevails. It makes no sense for a 2-channel but they are very common. I don’t see a good argument for non-environment mixing rooms outside of multichannel or 3D artificial environment mixing. However it’s my understanding he is a proponent of non-environment rooms which were first popularized and are still commonly used for 2-channel mixing (we studied two case studies or his as examples of good and bad rooms for their intended purpose). Unless mixing for headphones I don’t see how that leads to a natural sounding recording.

LeDe was a dumb idea. I get the idea but I think it’s well established that wasn’t the way to go. It kind of makes sense in home listening rooms as long as they are larger and the speakers are out into a room.

Controlled image and reflection free seems to be more common today and make a lot more sense when done right. What I find is a critical misunderstanding of what they are about. Reflection free zone does not equal no reflections at the mixing position. It’s about mitigating acoustic mirrors that are so early in the formation of the sound that they simply color and smear the sound and image. That means that where and how a sidewall is absorbed depends on the size of the room and placement of the speaker. Controlled image simply taking this notion to the next level. You have to also take the speakers own directivity into account. A speaker with narrower dispersion naturally has less of these “bad” early reflections. Where a lot of guys go wrong is they continue to absorb “early@ reflections that are actually late enough that our brain uses them as cues for the room environment sound, and if not replaced by effect speakers, can lead to an overly dry and artificial sound. Like first reflection absorbers.

In the end, for mastering, mixing, or home listening, some environment must be in the room if it is 2 channel. Otherwise where will the environment come from? It is my opinion that non-environment rooms that were mid-designed as basically anechoic chambers have lead to some really “over-mixed” recordings that sound really unnatural.

I don’t have much experience with studio rooms that are nothing but environment, but I would imagine they can be just as problematic. If the decay times of the mixing room far exceeds what you find in real rooms then I would imagine the recordings would be too dry.

As for the flat vs room curve idea. That is so misguided that I’ve wanted to do a video and paper on the topic for a while now. If people took the time to read the AES journal articles (and not just books) by Toole they would understand where that comes from better. If they the. Read the source papers (Toole didn’t invent that idea) they would probably be able to start applying it accurately. Neither flat nor 1dB per octave is right. Those are both extreme generalizations.

Here is the science:
Speakers are all, for the most part, at least somewhat directional. That is, at some point in the frequencies the response begins to fall off in level as you move off axis. When it gets extreme people like to call that beaming. An omnidirectional microphone captures the direct and reflected sound without prejudice. It can’t tell the difference. Nor can the capturing software. All it can tell is the arrival time. What that means is that since most speakers become increasingly omnidirectional at low frequencies and since the period increases in length at lower frequencies, eventually the portion of sound captured In the steady state contains more and more reflections. The frequency response plot thus contains more energy at low frequencies than at high (which, due to less reflections, contains less energy). So that means in a room with reflections (I.e. any normal room) you expect the captured steady-state response to have a tilt. How much depends on the directivity it the speaker. The narrower the directivity over the more reduced bandwidth, the more tilted it would be. An Omnidirectional speaker would have a flat in room response.

What you hear in all those scenarios is flat because human hearing is very selective. Our ears are directional and our brain is really smart. It can tell reflections from direct sound and knows to filter out those reflections. So what we hear, tonally, doesn’t match what we measure in room.

In an anechoic chamber or any environment for which there are no reflections, a speakers response should be flat. There is no excess energy from the reflections in the steady state because there are no reflections.

Now that means in a non-environment room that is basically truly anechoic flat night in fact be a better match to what people hear in their room. But let’s be realistic, how many non-environment rooms are tricky anechoic at all frequencies. Anechoic chambers aren’t anechoic at all frequencies. Most anechoic chambers are physically too small to be much good below 100hz, 50hz at best. Basically the giant ones for testing rocket ships or cars are about the only ones good down to 20hz or below. That’s because it’s impossible for acoustic absorbers to reasonably absorb all of the sound. Some of it always reflects back, even at mid and high frequencies, but especially low frequencies.

So I would argue that there is a desirable room curve for a non-environment room and it’s neither 1dB per octave rising nor is it flat. It is, instead, a function of the speakers directivity and the rooms actual absorption characteristics at the mix position. And quite frankly nobody knows what that should be, but it’s also unimportant. What you want to do is simply build a speaker that has a flat listening axis response In the anechoic chambers environment, and whose DI is as flat as possible as low as possible in at least the frontal hemisphere. The level of the DI is a matter of debate, but it is my opinion that 0-1dB is just too wide dispersion and provides a very diffused image that is not realistic. That 2-5dB is in the range of most normal speakers and provides a good natural image. That 6-10 is what we often call controlled directivity and provides more pinpoint imaging (something I think is desirable, especially in virtual environment reproduction), and anything above that is special purpose for the most part. The desired room curve then is whatever the speaker naturally makes, you don’t fit a speaker response to a room curve, it’s a property of the speaker and room interacting as captured by a flawed ear proxy. Eq is reserved instead for removing the bumps that are caused by SBIR and modes, or actual flaws in the speakers own response.
 

DanDan

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Interesting thoughts. But from experience of trying to translate from recording to the average or everyman's listening environment, I have some very different views. As have others on different aspects. The NARAS Surround committee recommend a diffuse as possible space for Surround Mixing!
NE and similar rooms are in essence anechoic. ETC's typically show -35dB and lower for at least the first 20mS. Even my Prosumer CR does that. Listening to speakers in such a space is in many ways similar to headphone listening, but of course the latter omits the +6dB centre effect. In both cases there is no environment to speak of. None. The current NE etc. etc. are just a development on the past. Haas means that we integrate reflections occurring during the early window, so even designs which delivered a later Kicker to the back of the ear, where it hears little HF, were anechoic too, in the sense that I mean it. No different to Headphones tonally. Research and my own experience show that surprisingly we do not add extra reverb or delay effects in headphones or the NE scenario. Nor, within reason, do we omit such time Fx when mixing in say a real living room.
Brightly voiced speakers such as say PMC IB1 delivered a flat to HF rising response in my pretty small poorly treated CR. The tonality bore no similarity to the same music played on speakers in the kitchen. Nor any similarity to HD600's I had at the time. I played around with variations on imposed curves for a few years. Ultimately I ended up with Bruel and Kjaer. Newell's follower Jouanjean has extensive theoretical knowledge. He insists, to the level of scary fundamentalist, that Flat at the Listener is the way in his remarkably anechoic rooms. Both of us cannot be correct. One of us has made Records, including world wide Hi Fi demo material. I note also that nobody listens on AudioMetric Headphones.
DD
 
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Matthew J Poes

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Interesting thoughts. But from experience of trying to translate from recording to the average or everyman's listening environment, I have some very different views. As have others on different aspects. The NARAS Surround committee recommend a diffuse as possible space for Surround Mixing!
NE and similar rooms are in essence anechoic. ETC's typically show -35dB and lower for at least the first 20mS. Even my Prosumer CR does that. Listening to speakers in such a space is in many ways similar to headphone listening, but of course the latter omits the +6dB centre effect. In both cases there is no environment to speak of. None. The current NE etc. etc. are just a development on the past. Haas means that we integrate reflections occurring during the early window, so even designs which delivered a later Kicker to the back of the ear, where it hears little HF, were anechoic too, in the sense that I mean it. No different to Headphones tonally. Research and my own experience show that surprisingly we do not add extra reverb or delay effects in headphones or the NE scenario. Nor, within reason, do we omit such time Fx when mixing in say a real living room.
Brightly voiced speakers such as say PMC IB1 delivered a flat to HF rising response in my pretty small poorly treated CR. The tonality bore no similarity to the same music played on speakers in the kitchen. Nor any similarity to HD600's I had at the time. I played around with variations on imposed curves for a few years. Ultimately I ended up with Bruel and Kjaer. Newell's follower Jouanjean has extensive theoretical knowledge. He insists, to the level of scary fundamentalist, that Flat at the Listener is the way in his remarkably anechoic rooms. Both of us cannot be correct. One of us has made Records, including world wide Hi Fi demo material. I note also that nobody listens on AudioMetric Headphones.
DD

Flat in an anechoic room is correct, but I still assert these rooms are not anechoic below 100hz. I will believe it when I see it. Since real anechoic rooms aren’t, how could these studios. I don’t have your experience in studios but I’ve still measured a good number of large professional studios and they weren’t anechoic at low frequencies. If that is true, that it’s not anechoic, then it isn’t desirable to be flat below 100hz. You want the bass to rise. I’m using 100hz arbitrarily here, but there would be some turnover frequency where the absorption isn’t enough anymore.

The first portion of what I said was just my opinion. The second bit on in room response is not an opinion. It’s a scientific fact supported by tons of research and sound theory. Totally flat is only really flat if the room is really anechoic at all frequencies. If you artificially make the response flat through eq and the room is even a little reflective at low frequencies, the bass is unnaturally weakened then. You would end up mixing the bass hot to compensate, no?
 

Matthew J Poes

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Sorry I didn’t mean for that to sound so rude. I was just trying to make the point that when it comes to in room response, that room curve comes from an actual scientific finding that is now well understood. So there is a “right” and “wrong” there.
 

DanDan

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The Titanic was designed by 'actual' Engineers, while the Arc.......Be as contradictory as you like, I am shining a light on dichotomies and contradictions here. e.g. Newell promotes the flat notion, but reluctantly admits 'some owners apply a HF roll off'. Jouanjean insists on the same but then 'include's' subs complying to Fletcher Munson. There is confusion, mental reservation. People speaking out of both sides for their mouths. Many practitioners, Andre Vare, Hodas, have been applying BK since the 70's. Research shows 160 broadcast organisation CRs as Flat. EBU specs allow both. There are different kinds of science. B&K curve is a researched statistic. The more recent Sonarworks research came up with remarkably similar curves. I believe tone, the balance of frequencies is vastly underestimated and unknown. Real music by orchestras and even Rock have remarkably similar Spectra. Very like the Harmon, BK, SonarWks.
We could try to define anechoic, but to what purpose? It's easily experience outdoors. Newell etc. make their rooms as Anechoic as possible to the lowest frequencies. I am aware of results as notable as 80mS down around 50Hz.
I am saying Anechoic in the context, you are saying there is no such thing as Anechoic. Those views are not mutually exclusive if you think about it, in context. In my style, empirical, I am saying 'no different to headphones', again with context.
NB the 20/20 minimum. -20dB during the first 20mS. The ear hears very differently within that window. So any room tone after is so significant. And well, we don't see even a single cycle of 50Hz until 20mS has elapsed.
DD
 
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