Setting up bookshelf speakers for nearfield listening?

[Sonnie]

Curious if anyone does this outside of the studio engineers.

As it stands now, I have huge speakers... a good distance from the walls, on out into the room, and about 2.5 meters from the main listening position. I get a big huge sound stage. I think about how some studio engineers use smaller bookshelf speakers for playback during recordings. Consider how accurate some of those speakers are... such as the Genelec 8050B, 8030C, Neumann KH80, and several others that are powered... then there are the Revel M105 non-powered... all of which are extremely neutral.

How would these sound if placed nearfield in a room at about 1-2 meters from the listening position, on stands at ear level of course. Obviously a sub would be good with these, but would I still get that big huge sound stage with the speakers being so much smaller, yet they are much closer to me.

I know I could try it, but I'm more curious if others have done it and compared it to much larger speakers.

 

[tesseract]

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

 

[tesseract]

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

 

[tesseract]

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

 

[tesseract]

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

 

[Sonnie]

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

I need speakers first!

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

I need speakers first!

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

I need speakers first!

I am in the process of setting up yet another monitor/subwoofer system. Let's ignore the subs, for now.

Try an equilateral triangle of 5 feet. Spread the mains out, as needed. I typically end up being more or less 5 feet away from the mains, with the spread between them being 5 1/2 - 6 ft.

I need speakers first!

 

[tesseract]

@Sonnie , at least you are in a good wifi spot.

I just took my dinner to go, it's so bad here.

 

[tesseract]

What are your top 3 monitor choices (I despise the "bookshelf" moniker, as one that uses monitors, decades running)?

I've wanted a group "bookshelf" evaluation for years now. This is what most people can accommodate in their rooms.

 

[Sonnie]

How about "Studio Monitors"... as I want the ones I can place up close... about 1 to 1.5 meters from my head.

Genelec 8040B
Neumann KH 120
Dynaudio LYD 8
Revel M105 (although I'm not sure these are meant to be nearfield).

I may grab a pair to have for our evaluation if we end up having time for them.

 

[meltemi]

True "Studio Monitors" normally have balanced inputs and therefore require a preamp / computer audio interface with balanced outputs.
Since HF drivers only cover about 3¼ octaves (2kHz - 20kHz) out of a maximum of up to 10 octaves (20Hz - 20kHz), the Mid/Low drivers are likely to have a more important impact on overall sound quality than the HF drivers.
Since the room is very often the weakest component in the chain, IMHO speaker placement is crucial and room correction is compulsory.
Some (analog) monitors offer 'room control' via switches for Low, Mid and High (e.g. Neumann KH 120).
Some (DSP) Monitors offer digital electronic room correction via app or via optional microphone (e.g. Neumann KH 80 DSP, Neumann KH 750 DSP Sub).
Neumann KH 80 DSP will give you a big huge sound stage already out of the box. Using the optional MA-1 microphone not only improves linearity and sound stage but also the LF behavior. The combination of Neumann KH 120 with Neumann KH 750 allows you to have digital electronic room correction for the sub and the KH 120.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the Genelec sound. The Dynaudio LYD 8 has XLR and Cinch inputs. The Revel M105 is a passive speaker.

I'd go for Neumann KH 80 DSP or KH 120 with KH 750 DSP sub.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

“Studio Monitors” are usually referred to as “Nearfield Monitors”, and are specifically engineered for optimal quality and imaging at closer distances. Many, even my relatively inexpensive M-Audio BX5 have a control on the back (I’m actually not sure what it controls) to match your installation distance from the front walls.
The sweet spot is much smaller with near fields, which is why the chair in most control rooms is a very important piece of equipment. You have to be comfortable sitting in the same position for long periods of time, because just leaning back or forward a few inches will take you out of the sweet spot. When you’re in it, it sounds magnificent. When you are not in it, it’s very unimpressive.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

I also am not a huge fan of the Genelec signature. You may want to look at the ADAM nearfields, knowing what’s in your theater.

 

[DanDan]

I don't think there is a definable difference between Studio Monitors and other Speakers. Even in the past it was common for Engineers to bring their own HiFi speakers.
The original NS10 was quite a sweet sounding entry level device, part of a range with the NS1000 at the top. With it's sealed woofer it worked really well in a bookshelf or very close to a Front Wall. Or on the floor. It may surprise readers that such a little box can do 30Hz quite well, with no port chuffing. A friend brought a pair here for testing the other day. He was stunned to hear the clean 32Hz from just one speaker, filling the room.
Unless the Front Wall is very very deeply treated there will be an SBIR Null caused by the distance. In the 1M region this will remove specific Bass Notes, Floor Toms, some of the Kick Drum. At distances around 2M and greater, the frequency of this null tends to be below the response of the speaker. So we see Mastering Rooms with speakers out in the room.
The little Neumann are amazing for the size and money, but the KH310 is a real star. IMO it sends ATC and others three times the price packing.

 

[meltemi]

Many, even my relatively inexpensive M-Audio BX5 have a control on the back (I’m actually not sure what it controls) to match your installation distance from the front walls.

M-Audio calls it 'space switch'. It's intended to compensate for placement near walls (back, front, side). The BX5 has its vent port at the back.
Other monitors have it in front (allows placement against wall)..
Switches on the Neumann KH 120 are for LF (tone control), Mid (to compensate for the reflections of the workspace table) and HF (tone control).

 

[meltemi]

The original NS10 was quite a sweet sounding entry level device, part of a range with the NS1000 at the top. With it's sealed woofer it worked really well in a bookshelf or very close to a Front Wall.
The little Neumann are amazing for the size and money, but the KH310 is a real star. IMO it sends ATC and others three times the price packing.

The NS10 was used by the engineers to check, how their recordings would sound on an average HiFi system. Studio Monitors ? Definitely not.
Going from Neumann KH 80 DSP to Neumann KH 310 seems to me like moving from nearfields to midfields (a matter of size and space).

 

[DanDan]

There are two NS10s. The original was very low powered and quite sweet sounding. The later version, NS10M Studio, was much more robust and pretty horrible to my ear. Despite this, the latter have been and are widely used as a primary mixing speaker. Remember they deliver a clean 30Hz, even at reasonable level too when place on a large baffle extension, i.e. Mixing Desk. https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story
The KH310 is a very small speaker, I use them about 1M from my ears. Neumann specify it as Near Field. Again there are no definitions on many of these terms.

 

[meltemi]

The Neumann KH 310 is more than four times larger than the KH 80 and has no integrated DSP.
I admit that the Neumann KH 310 goes definitely further down than the KH 80.
However, if I need more bass, I use my big monitors (same as currently in EMI Abbey Road Studio 1).

 

[meltemi]

True. Neumann calls the KH 310 a nearfield.

 

[DanDan]

So we agree with Neumann the KH310 is a Nearfield. It is certainly 'bookshelf' sized, fits in a 19" rack in Broadcast trucks and such. Bit it is a bit of an outlier here. That is why I threw it in. It illustrates the lack of distinction between truly great small speakers. In a comparison in a world leading CR with full sized ATCs plus subs, a friend of mine said that this speaker was indistinguishable from the biggies, until silly SPLs. I have brought my own old Ditton 66s and placed them in the holes left after a major studio closed here. Similar experience, but much sweeter sounding. Dome Mids I expect. . But can we get back to the OP. Some manufacturers do use Waveguides, controlled dispersion in order to mitigate side, overhead, floor, reflections. Genelec, Neumann. Not Dynaudio. Does this translate into a less wide and spacious soundstage? Who knows. The pure integrity, quality, of the integrated controlled sound in a smaller area may sound better than the wide angle and relatively wild response of Hi Fi models intended for untreated rooms. Or not. There have been horn loaded Hi Fi speakers with similar ambitions to diminish the influence of the room. But I have to say the notion of using domestic speakers in a highly dampened CR is a complete fallacy. The almost Anechoic condition utterly dominates. The old NS10 thing was IMO a misinterpretation of a very famous mixers use of them. Given that he was using the original NS10, and blocked the tweeter with toilet paper, I suspect he was simulating AM Radio. Perhaps in a car, bigger Auratones.

 

[Sonnie]

For the record... I ended up with a pair of Adams A7X for our most recent speaker evaluation. We'll be posting up our thoughts soon.

 

[DanDan]

Oh, that's popular but quite an outlier in terms of sound.

 

[meltemi]

Some manufacturers do use Waveguides, controlled dispersion in order to mitigate side, overhead, floor, reflections. Genelec, Neumann. Not Dynaudio. Does this translate into a less wide and spacious soundstage? The pure integrity, quality, of the integrated controlled sound in a smaller area may sound better than the wide angle and relatively wild response of Hi Fi models intended for untreated rooms. Or not. But I have to say the notion of using domestic speakers in a highly dampened CR is a complete fallacy.

The angle of dispersion solely depends on the mechanical construction of the speaker and has nothing to do with HiFi or Professional.

Mounting a HF driver on a baffle larger than the driver itself causes some umwanted side effects. The dispersion gets more narrow and compromised by reflections on the baffle. A carefully designed waveguide helps to lessen these effects and results in a better controlled (wider) dispersion. The ultimate solution would be to mount the HF driver in a small separate housing (as done by one manufacturer since 1977 !).

The dispersion of a monitor should be even over the whole frequency range, i.e. HF, (Mid) and Low drivers should not show any dispersion constrictions, which are most likely to occur in the region(s) of the crossover(s). Further the positions of the various drivers should be phase compensated.

And last but not least, speaker placement (with respect to the listening position) is crucial and IMHO electronic room correction is compulsory, even in highly treated rooms.

 

[DanDan]

"Or not. But I have to say the notion of using domestic speakers in a highly dampened CR is a complete fallacy."
This seems a bit cryptic. A highly dampened CR will not have the wild boom of typical domestic listening spaces. On top of that the Direct Field is completely devoid of HF destructive reflections. The overall result is very very bright, similar to Anechoic chambers. So I reckon it would be an utter fallacy to consider this as representative of domestic listening. Here in the consumer side of high end audio, the Harmon and Bruel and Kjaer are well accepted.
Oddly, in the Pro Studio world there are deep seated circles of confusion.