Negatron II

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
We are selling our house and most likely getting a new home built in Mexico... Here is some info on the proposed new build.

So the speakers are almost 3' deep (with a 60 degree width dispersion, and a 90 degree height dispersion. I thought this best since the speakers would be 27" wide versus with a 90 being almost 4' wide which would would but them only a couple of feet apart.), and would be used for 7 channels with a 15' wide screen with a viewing distance of about 12-15'. I also need to take into account diffusers on the rear wall which requires a 5' distance to the row of seating. I have also read that the surrounds need to be at least 5' from the closest listener. We will be using a couple of old couches from our Concord home. I need at least 2' per side of the AT screen for bass traps too. Ideally for the anamorphic lense I need over 20' for the projector to screen too with more being better to eliminate a curved screen requirement.

Room width of our new room is approximately 19'.

Room Length is approximately 30'to the kitchen bar.

Ideas, suggestions?

New house build starts on post 91.
 
Last edited:

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
With the new setup we are trying to make the home as healthy as possible. We are putting all of the equipment outside of the HT, and will have plants inside the theater on the side walls. The room should maintain about a 70f temp without any air-conditioning at all, and will have a ceiling of 31' at the peak of the boveda ceiling.

I will be taking all my audio equipment. The HT/Living room will have 5 channels of synergy speakers, and then my JBL speakers for Atmos on the ceiling. The ceiling is a brick boveda covered in stucco.. The walls are about 1' thick clay brick, with the floors being concrete covered in Contera black tiles. I realize in some respects this will be a very interesting room to treat. I will be using YPAO for the room tune, and minidsps for the crossovers for the speakers. My speakers will be powered by a DIY 14 channel Ice Power amp that we built last year. It is 100wpc for the bass, surround, and atmos, with50wpc for the horn drivers. The efficiency of the horn drivers is 114db, and each synergy horn will have 2 15" woofers...if that is not enough we will look at 4 woofers per speaker. I will post up a build thread later on the amp, and one on the speakers with pics.
 
Last edited:

Todd Anderson

Editor / Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Messages
5,799
Location
Balt/Wash Metro
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Denon X8500H
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Gen3 2.8 multichannel amp
Other Amp
VSX21-THX
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO UDP-203, Panasonic UB9000
Front Speakers
SVS Ultra Towers
Center Channel Speaker
SVS Ultra Center
Surround Speakers
SVS Ultra Surround
Surround Back Speakers
SVS Ultra Bookshelf
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Front, Top Mid-Front)
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Middle, Top Rear)
Subwoofers
dual SVS SB16s + dual PSA XS30s
Other Speakers or Equipment
Behringer 1124p; Aura Bass Shaker Pros; SuperSub X
Video Display Device
JVC NX7
Screen
Carada Cine-White 0 gain
Other Equipment
LG Electronics 65-inch B6 OLED, Sony 65-inch X900F
I'm going to have to think about this... but my instant reaction is: TOTAL JEALOUSY!
 

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
2,511
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD M17 V2 Processor
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 Monoblocks
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Seven
Other Amp
Emotiva A-150
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Classic ESL 9
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan Motion 12
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVSound SB16-Ultra x 4
Video Display Device
Epson 6050
Screen
Elite Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Other Equipment
Dish Joey 4K
A brick ceiling? Whoa... I wonder if there is a chance your subs could shake a brick loose and down on someone's head?

Keep in mind the more rows of seating you have, the harder it is to get the surround to function properly. You may have sound coming from the side speakers that are actually in front of the back row and it can really mess up the sound for those sitting back there. It's one reason I don' t have side surrounds in my room. I never could get it to sound right for those on the back row. If you can get the side surrounds next to the back row and it not be too close to the back wall, it can work okay.
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
Last edited:

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
2,511
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD M17 V2 Processor
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 Monoblocks
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Seven
Other Amp
Emotiva A-150
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Classic ESL 9
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan Motion 12
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVSound SB16-Ultra x 4
Video Display Device
Epson 6050
Screen
Elite Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Other Equipment
Dish Joey 4K
I think where those four lights are would work for Atmos speakers... depending on which end of the room that is.
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
Thanks Sonnie... the thing I am worried about is attaching weight to bricks, and the safest way would be to put framework up, but then it takes away from the beautiful ceiling.

Any idea on how a curved ceiling would sound, or problems with tuning a HT with that ceiling?
 
Last edited:

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
2,511
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD M17 V2 Processor
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 Monoblocks
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Seven
Other Amp
Emotiva A-150
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Classic ESL 9
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan Motion 12
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVSound SB16-Ultra x 4
Video Display Device
Epson 6050
Screen
Elite Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Other Equipment
Dish Joey 4K
If you have a big enough room where you can get your speakers out into the open and away from the walls, where I personally believe they should be for the best experience, then the walls won't come into play for the most part. My room is 19.5' wide by 23.5' deep and I can take the panels off of my side walls and you won't see much of a measured reflection difference at all.
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
If you have a big enough room where you can get your speakers out into the open and away from the walls, where I personally believe they should be for the best experience, then the walls won't come into play for the most part. My room is 19.5' wide by 23.5' deep and I can take the panels off of my side walls and you won't see much of a measured reflection difference at all.
I will have to think about that...I would end up adding 6' more width, plus 6' more to the length. My room would be 35' long, and 26' wide with a 12-15' ceiling, and that is with the flat ceiling. Would I also need to get the ceiling speakers 3' from the ceiling too?
 

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
2,511
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD M17 V2 Processor
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 Monoblocks
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Seven
Other Amp
Emotiva A-150
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Classic ESL 9
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan Motion 12
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVSound SB16-Ultra x 4
Video Display Device
Epson 6050
Screen
Elite Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Other Equipment
Dish Joey 4K
Surround speakers and Atmos speakers are fine up against a wall. They are mainly for ambient sound. The speakers you want out from the wall are your mains, but that's really more so for music and concerts than it would be for movie/TV dialog.
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
Surround speakers and Atmos speakers are fine up against a wall. They are mainly for ambient sound. The speakers you want out from the wall are your mains, but that's really more so for music and concerts than it would be for movie/TV dialog.
That makes it much easier then, as my fronts will already be away from the side walls as there will be a bass traps right next to the left and right speakers ( if I put the left and rights at the edges of the screen)... all I would need to do is extend the room Length about 3' to give me 4' behind the left and right channels, and I could then move the center closer to the wall to give me a curved front stage for the speakers.
 

Todd Anderson

Editor / Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Messages
5,799
Location
Balt/Wash Metro
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Denon X8500H
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Gen3 2.8 multichannel amp
Other Amp
VSX21-THX
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO UDP-203, Panasonic UB9000
Front Speakers
SVS Ultra Towers
Center Channel Speaker
SVS Ultra Center
Surround Speakers
SVS Ultra Surround
Surround Back Speakers
SVS Ultra Bookshelf
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Front, Top Mid-Front)
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Middle, Top Rear)
Subwoofers
dual SVS SB16s + dual PSA XS30s
Other Speakers or Equipment
Behringer 1124p; Aura Bass Shaker Pros; SuperSub X
Video Display Device
JVC NX7
Screen
Carada Cine-White 0 gain
Other Equipment
LG Electronics 65-inch B6 OLED, Sony 65-inch X900F
Wouldn't dipole/dipole speakers fit the bill for two rows of seating?


I think you can get creative about getting Atmos speakers up in-between those beams. One way would be to use in-ceiling speakers and build boxes that are stained to match the beams.
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
I have 4 JBL speakers currently for atmos (same as used in theaters) that are the next model down, from my surround speakers (also real theater speakers). I could wire them together in pairs to make a dipole setup out of them when I make more synergy speakers for my surrounds. I would love to have synergy horns on the ceiling too, but the weight is around 200lbs each, and that is pretty scary to have over your head.
 
Last edited:

Todd Anderson

Editor / Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Messages
5,799
Location
Balt/Wash Metro
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Denon X8500H
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Gen3 2.8 multichannel amp
Other Amp
VSX21-THX
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO UDP-203, Panasonic UB9000
Front Speakers
SVS Ultra Towers
Center Channel Speaker
SVS Ultra Center
Surround Speakers
SVS Ultra Surround
Surround Back Speakers
SVS Ultra Bookshelf
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Front, Top Mid-Front)
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Middle, Top Rear)
Subwoofers
dual SVS SB16s + dual PSA XS30s
Other Speakers or Equipment
Behringer 1124p; Aura Bass Shaker Pros; SuperSub X
Video Display Device
JVC NX7
Screen
Carada Cine-White 0 gain
Other Equipment
LG Electronics 65-inch B6 OLED, Sony 65-inch X900F
Yeah: 200 lbs hanging over your head is a BAD idea!
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
This should be a very unique build. Looking forward to seeing it progress.
Well you know I do things diffently than most. My current setup sounded much better than I expected, but I would have wished to have had a little more extended top end, but I think that was partly to do with the design of the horns ( I just found out if I remove the 2" adapter it will extend the highs without equipment, so I will also try that). We will see how the new synergy speakers test out with the new amp. This room should be very live, and I will have to deal with some damping. I would Der if I should do first reflection points floor to ceiling very just 2x4 panels. The speakers will have the widest dispersion floor to ceiling vs left to right. I decided to go this way as 3 28" wide speakers will fit better behind a 15' wide screen than 3 40" wide speakers. I think I will have a wide enough dispersion with them this way even if I was to have my first row 10' away from the screen. What do you think?
 
Last edited:

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
I have an idea for the entry door to the Ht...what if I was to make a pocket style door? I was thinking it could be sealed around the door frame opening so that is sealed when closed. I was thinking the trick would be to make the opening smaller than the door size so that when the door is closed it is still extending beyond the door opening on all sides including the floor.

What do you think of this idea?
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
I have been looking at the golden trapagon setup, and I am not sure what size I should make the front wall to be optimum. When I looked at the questions area they were suggesting up to 10' from the walls for the speakers. With speakers that will be 28" wide what should I do for the front to wall width and height? I was looking at 20' wide, but now I dont know if that is even enough. Would treating the wall behind the screen with roxul allow me to run the speakers closer to the walls than having no treatment? I am trying to get this room all mapped out so I can give the builder my requirements on this room, as the house will be built around this room ( the HT will be in the center of the house with only one wall being a exterior wall). I can sit 10' from the screen without any problems. The screen currently is a 195" diagonal 2.35 AT screen, and in the future I will be moving to a 4000 lumen or brighter projector with e-shift most likely. I would like to setup the room for a 2 channel Soundstage, and then add the center channel, surrounds, and Atmos channels...all of which are setup to be centered around the MLP.

I am open to whatever dimensions are best, and was looking at over 10' ceilings as the suggested locations for Atmos are over 10'. Another thing going I have heard is with multiple rows, I would be better off using multiple side channels per wall. I could always put my synergy speakers on their sides and have a 90 degree dispersion pattern vs the 60 degree dispersion pattern for the fronts. I am assuming that if I was to locate the speakers between the 2 rows of seating it would give good coverage, but maybe it would be better to have the sides next to the front row of seats, and then have the rear surrounds on the back wall. Since this will be my final HT I want to make sure I get it the best I can before adding treatments.walls will be 1' thick clay walls.
Any input on this?
 
Last edited:

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
2,511
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD M17 V2 Processor
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 Monoblocks
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Seven
Other Amp
Emotiva A-150
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Classic ESL 9
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan Motion 12
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVSound SB16-Ultra x 4
Video Display Device
Epson 6050
Screen
Elite Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Other Equipment
Dish Joey 4K
I have an idea for the entry door to the Ht...what if I was to make a pocket style door? I was thinking it could be sealed around the door frame opening so that is sealed when closed. I was thinking the trick would be to make the opening smaller than the door size so that when the door is closed it is still extending beyond the door opening on all sides including the floor.
Or do double doors like what I have... one opening in and one opening out. When you should my second door it forms a vacuum between the doors... and helps with soundproofing as well. Take a look at the link in my sig.

I can sit 10' from the screen without any problems. The screen currently is a 195" diagonal 2.35 AT screen, and in the future I will be moving to a 4000 lumen or brighter projector with e-shift most likely. I would like to setup the room for a 2 channel Soundstage
If your MLP is only 10' from the screen, first off, that's a HUGE screen to only be 10' back... you will be sick watching it and swallowed up in it. VERY hard to view that size screen that close. Secondly... you won't be able to get your speakers out far enough from the screen wall to get good imaging and sound stage with any sort of depth acuity. I would say about 12-14' is minimum. 14' would be ideal and give you plenty of room to work with about any speaker. 20' wide is fine for about any speaker... the depth is more important to make sure you can get your MLP far enough back. Distance from the screen wall is critical for sound stage and imaging.

multiple side channels per wall
You can try it... but it won't sound right for those on the back row to have another side surround that far out in front of them. The side surrounds are going to interfere with the front when you have them out in front of a row. It's why a big theater doesn't really sound correct IMO.

These are of course strictly my opinions... others may have different views on it.
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
We have viewed the screen from 10' and everyone has been happy with it...I currently have it a 12' though. How far should I be putting the speakers from the rear wall, and sides to get the best imaging? Is 20' wide wide enough for my room? Once I have the width I should be able to determine the height, correct?
 

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
2,511
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
NAD M17 V2 Processor
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-1 Gen 2 Monoblocks
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA Seven
Other Amp
Emotiva A-150
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Classic ESL 9
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan Motion 12
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVSound SB16-Ultra x 4
Video Display Device
Epson 6050
Screen
Elite Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Other Equipment
Dish Joey 4K
Wow... mine is 126" diagonal and I am at about 12ft... it's all I can stand. I couldn't begin to imagine 195" at 2ft closer. There are viewing calculator available too that will give you the best viewing angles.

There is no set distance from the wall for speakers... trial and error. You place them to get the best sound, highly dependent on the speakers. I don't think you will know for sure until you get them in the room. So give yourself plenty of room.

20' wide should be fine, but of course that is up to you really... again dependent on how many seats across you want, which 20' will handle 4 recliners fine. If you look at my room, I have 3 on the front row and 4 on the back with plenty of room and my room is 19.5' wide.
 

Negatron

Moderator
Staff member
VIP Supporter
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
806
Location
San Miguel de Allende Mexico
Thanks again Sonnie for your excellent advice.

Or do double doors like what I have... one opening in and one opening out. When you should my second door it forms a vacuum between the doors... and helps with soundproofing as well. Take a look at the link in my sig.
We have the same in our current HT, but in the new one the hallway will be running parallel to the door so I need to have either a single wide door or 2 doors like a real theater.

If your MLP is only 10' from the screen, first off, that's a HUGE screen to only be 10' back... you will be sick watching it and swallowed up in it. VERY hard to view that size screen that close. Secondly... you won't be able to get your speakers out far enough from the screen wall to get good imaging and sound stage with any sort of depth acuity. I would say about 12-14' is minimum. 14' would be ideal and give you plenty of room to work with about any speaker. 20' wide is fine for about any speaker... the depth is more important to make sure you can get your MLP far enough back. Distance from the screen wall is critical for sound stage and imaging.
If I stick with my JBL theater surrounds I will gain a good foot of clearance over having the synergy speakers for surrounds. The difference is anticipated to be as much as 20db though, but then again...will I ever need more than 105db from the surrounds?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Peter Loeser

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Messages
228
Location
Southwest Michigan
Agreed with Sonnie on speaker placement. There are calculators to get you started based on your room dimensions, but trial and error will most likely be the way to get the best results.

In my previous setup my front row was about 7ft from the 138" screen and I loved it. The 2nd row was more comfortable if you had a tendency to get dizzy. I plan to keep roughly the same setup in the new build.

Ron - what distance is your projector from the screen to achieve that picture size?
 
Top Bottom