Help on setting the “ optimal “ position for the gain knobs on power amps

bogdan benchea

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Hi there! I’ m experimenting with the gain knobs( voltage attenuators) on my qsc dca amps in combination with the marantz av 7702mk2; is there an optimal position for this settings? I’ve read that a power amp can be drive to his full power with the gains turn all the way down( counter clockwise) if the preamp provides the needed output voltage, some said that is important that the amp gains must be turn all way up to give the best performance, I’m a little confused. My main speakers Tannoy 12” are 97db sensitive; when I set the gain knobs on the DCAs at 28db and the trim speaker level in the marantz to -10db, the noise level at the speaker is much higher then if I set the gains on dca at 18 and the trim level in the marantz at 0db.l know that the noise floor of the marantz pre is pretty bad.Is the power or dynamic capabilities of the dca amp equal with both settings? If so, I would go with the second because the noise floor is lower on the speakers.The connection between the pre and amp is xlr.
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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First I’ve hard about the Marantz being noisy, but if it’s true you’ve run up against a common problem with highly efficient speakers like yours: They are very unforgiving of components that aren’t dead silent.

The recommendations you’ve been seeing on setting the amplifier’s gains are generally based on getting its maximum output. You don’t need to be concerned about that, because with speakers as efficient as yours, you’ll never need anything close to the amp’s maximum power output. Thus, go with the preamp / amp gain setting combination that gets you the least amount of background noise.

Part 6 of the article linked below will help explain the function of the amplifier’s gain controls. (You can ignore the references to achieving maximum power output because it’s not relevant in your case.)


Regards,
Wayne
 

bogdan benchea

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Very helpful article, thanks Wayne! The Marantz has an output sensitivity of 2,4V over xlr and the DCA1622 amps an input sensitivity of 1,2V(+3,9dbu)- don’t know what that means:-) on 8ohm. So I try to lower the gains on the amp and raise the trims in the pre if needed to achieve the lowest noise floor of the speakers.

regards
Bobby
 

DanDan

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It has been common in PA circles to run power amps all the way up. This created quite a nuisance with Digital Desks with their 26dBu output levels. Often we could see little on the meters and PFL was inaudible.
Almost always I would go to the Power Rack and reduce all amps to 50% or less. If there was a Controller or Graphic, again 50%. That led to comfortable metering and PFL. In the OP case, I recommend running the early stages at their nominal. Any level controls at say 7 out of 10. Then adjust the Power Amps for a normal listening level.
 

bogdan benchea

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The speaker trim levels in the processor goes from -12 to +12 db; now, I set the levels in the pre at 0 and the gains on the amp at about 10 o clock, that combination gives the least amount of background noise.

Thanks Dan!
 

rwortman

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I often see articles in professional sound magazines that are flat wrong about gain structure, using input gains to the board to set maximum desired SPL in the room. Convenience instead of sense, I suppose. We are supposed to set everything for maximum S/N up to the power amp and then use the power amp "gain" controls to set maximum SPL. I am using a Crown XLS1502 in my HT and stereo system with relatively low sensitivity speakers so I have no noise problems. The quick and dirty way to set your system would be the set the AVR or Pre-Pro volume to around 75% and turn the amp(s) up until it is as loud as you would ever want to listen. This sets a reasonable gain structure with some headroom.
 
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Grayson Dere

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"The quick and dirty way to set your system would be the set the AVR or Pre-Pro volume to around 75% and turn the amp(s) up until it is as loud as you would ever want to listen. This sets a reasonable gain structure with some headroom."

Thanks so much for this advice! I've wondered about this myself for a while. Would you advise a similar approach when using software based volume controls such as Windows Media Player etc...? ie: Drag the volume slider of WMP to around 75% and then adjust the external amp to taste (in my case a headphone amp)? It's very possible this has nothing to do with Pre-Pro volume but I wanted your thoughts : ) Thanks!
 

rwortman

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Windows media player likely has a digital volume control. On my PC which I use for DAW mixing I have the system volume control at maximum and use the volume knob on my USB interface for adjusting sound to my monitor speakers or headphones. The above advice is for when you are using a volume control upstream of a power amp that you want to set and forget. For a PC output driving a headphone amp I would set the Windows volume control at maximum..
 

bogdan benchea

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I will also try the “ quick and dirty “ way some time this week. Is it so that with enough input voltage from the pre-pro and the gains at 9 o clock ,the amp can deliver it’s full power?
 

rwortman

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I will also try the “ quick and dirty “ way some time this week. Is it so that with enough input voltage from the pre-pro and the gains at 9 o clock ,the amp can deliver it’s full power?

The goal is to maximize signal to noise ratio. You are only going to listen as loud as you are going to listen. You can achieve that same loudness with the amp gains turned all the way up and your pre-pro volume at a low level or with the amp gains reduced and your pre-pro at a much higher level. Presuming the same SPL you are using the same amount of the amps power in both cases but in the second you have less noise.

In any sound reproduction or reinforcement system, the goal is to get as much loudness as we want with the least amount of noise. How much of the rated amplifier power we are using is irrelevant unless we are using it all and that means we need a bigger amp.
 

Kal Rubinson

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You can achieve that same loudness with the amp gains turned all the way up and your pre-pro volume at a low level or with the amp gains reduced and your pre-pro at a much higher level. Presuming the same SPL you are using the same amount of the amps power in both cases but in the second you have less noise.
Nicely put.
 

markscohen

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Here are a few thoughts that might be useful...

In analog systems, there is always a background noise level. When the signal (music) level is low, that background noise becomes a larger fraction of the overall output, so the signal to noise ratio drops. Generally speaking, each device in the chain adds its own background noise, so that it's usually best to have the input signals high enough to exceed that noise level. In practice, this means that most of your gain should come from the first stages in your signal chain (e.g., your preamp).

If the gain is made too high, however, you run the risk of clipping and distortion. [Although it isn't typical, and is usually a bad idea, in some cases amplifier gain is controlled by modulating the negative feedback. This has the interesting side effect that distortion can increase systematically as gain is increased. I emphasize that very few circuits use this approach, however.]

Digital systems have a somewhat uglier set of relationships. When sound level is controlled numerically (i.e., the binary numbers representing the music data are scaled by multiplication), reducing the gain adds digitization noise from loss in resolution. For example, if you are sending music from your computer, tablet, or phone, to an amplifier system via a network, lowering the volume at the source (computer or handheld) ALWAYS results in increased digitization noise and distortion. Therefore, for the best sound, the level from your digital source should be set as high as possible, and then adjusted on your preamp using analog controls.

A well-designed preamp can use a digital control to adjust analog gain. In such systems, the digital portion might change the electrical resistance in a portion of the circuit, effectively becoming an analog volume knob. This is the best situation for signal to noise ratio in digital systems.

If you want to hear this for yourself, try this experiment: If you have a digital connection (such as WiFi, USB, or ethernet) from a phone, computer, or tablet to your amp and speakers...
  1. Turn the volume all the way down on your amp/speaker system.
  2. Turn the volume all the way down on your digital phone, tablet, or computer, then increase the volume by one click.
  3. Start playing some music and increase the amp/speaker volume until its loud enough to listen. If it still doesn't get loud enough, increase the volume on your digital device until you can hear the music well.
What you should hear, is an example of digitization noise and distortion (quantization)

Power Amps: The level controls on power amps do not control the total output power that they can deliver. Instead, they are (almost always) attenuators that control the input levels.

tl;dr...

BOTTOM LINE(s) FOR BEST SNR and LOWEST DISTORTION
1. Front-end devices, including preamps, digital signal sources, microphone preamps should be adjusted to run at their highest output levels without clipping.

2. For devices between preamp and power amp, with the input sources set as above, adjust the gain to its maximum before clipping. Digital devices (DSP) should generally have only an output gain setting. If it is calibrated in dBm, you should set the DSP output between -6 and 0 dBm. This will ensure that there is plenty of headroom for peak music passages.

3. To set up the power amp level, adjust the input controls to play as loud as you ever expect to want to listen, then turn up the gain a little more (3 dB, or so, if the controls are calibrated) to give you a little room in case the source levels from your favorite recordings are a bit low.
 

bogdan benchea

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Thanks @markscohen! how do I know when is the setting moment before clipping on preamp, miniDsp and power amp,can I measure the input/ output signals on the device? the Marantz preamp has a trim level setting between-12 and +12 dB, on the miniDsp I can set the level a few dB to negative to prevent clipping.
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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It will require measurement equipment to know the exact point that distortion sets in. The 75% recommendation @rwortman recommended is sufficiently high but should be below the distortion point.

All a processor between the pre-amp and amp needs is sufficient headroom to pass the maximum signal the pre amp can send, plus gain resulting from any processing it contributes. It should need no gain adjustments if it is properly designed. However, there have been issues with some miniDSP products (I think the 2x4?) that could not accept a high input signal, becoming a “choke point” in the signal chain.

Regards,
Wayne
 

markscohen

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Thanks @markscohen! how do I know when is the setting moment before clipping on preamp, miniDsp and power amp,can I measure the input/ output signals on the device? the Marantz preamp has a trim level setting between-12 and +12 dB, on the miniDsp I can set the level a few dB to negative to prevent clipping.
To know for sure does require measurement equipment: an oscilloscope, in particular. However, in lieu of that, you can use your ears. Clipping, when it occurs, is pretty harsh sounding. As long as you have the power amp turned down, however, it isn't harmful to the equipment. One route would be to increase the preamp gain until clipping becomes audible on loud passages, then back the gain off (by maybe 25% to allow some headroom).

In most cases, clipping is easiest to hear on loud, bass-heavy, passages, without other instruments playing. A YouTube search for solo bass guitar is a good start. Choose something that includes bass without effects of distortion. While I can't recommend the music, I found one called, "20 amazing bass lines of all time" whose first couple of minutes might be useful.

If you do have a scope, and need instructions, LMK. It's not a hard measurement to make.

Best of luck.
 

markscohen

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My post above may not be completely correct. In particular, bluetooth protocols are capable of sending volume control messages to the receiver without numerical scaling of the digital signal. When that's the case, adjusting the volume on your digital device would not result in quantization noise.

At this point, I haven't been able to determine which bluetooth devices implement this feature, and fear that my post above may have been naive.
 
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