Hello, My name is Allen, in Tennessee

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Hello Everyone,

I have spent my life in music and audio, I majored in Trombone at UTK (jokingly called the trombone factory, for the vast number of great trombone players produced by my professor, who recently retired after 50 years teaching, Don Hough. Along the way I played in a band that had a 2 year contract to play 5 sets a night, six nights a week at Ramada Inn on the west side. I recruited the best trumpet player at UT to play trumpet, and one night about six months in I decided to walk out to the bar and hear the trumpet solo from the audience perspective. This turned out to be a life changing event, because the sound coming from the PA system was not even remotely close to the tone of the trumpet (trust me I know what that is) and this made me very angry. Angry that we spent uncounted hours chasing tone and delivering it live, but it was being contorted by a bunch of wires and boxes. I got into audio because I wanted to find out "what is wrong with that thing?"
So I got a job at Dixie Hi Fi, the predessesor of Circuit City selling hi fi equipment. I made a reel to reel copy off of my turntable of "Songs in the Key of Life" The great work by Stevie Wonder and wrote up countless stereos while it played. After Christmas I went on a break back to middle Tennessee and visited a drummer I knew that was living on "music row" in Nashville. He told me of all the things he was involved in like demo sessions, master sessions, trust fund gigs, etc, NONE of which they taught us about in music school so I was determined to make the jump to Nashville. I got a transfer with Dixie the next week (amazing) and moved to Nashville in my Volkswagen Bus. In my belongings was a Crown DC300A at that time the king of the jungle of professional amplifiers. I had taken to using Pioneer receiver boxes with the strings on top to carry it around in (free vs $$ for a proper road case) I piled up my belongings in the floor and a salesman who was already there said facetiously "Nice receiver you've got there" (His name is Jim Patten, now a VP at Control4) So I said "why don't you open it up make sure it is ok?" He undid the strings and his eyes bugged out when he saw the Crown. We were instant friends.
So we chugged along selling stereos by the truckload until one of my cohorts got a job at Masterphonics (a mastering studio on music row) and called me up to tell me of an opportunity in the same building with Nashville Studio Systems a company owned by Joe Overholt (a sax playing electrical engineer on the design team at Texas Instruments that invented the integrated circuit chip.
I have to take a break, I will come back later and continue this saga.....

I was the sales manager for pro audio equipment for Joe. We had Tascam, Sound Workshop, JBL, and all the other things you needed to create a studio. I was in audio heaven, and the only problem was I didn't sell anything for 2 months. I became of course concerned, and counseled with another worker there, John Boyle. John was the original National Sales Manager for Tascam, was from California and had come to Nashville to take album cover photos for Joe's record label Direct Disk Labs. He told me to unscrew the mic part of my telephone and listen to him while he closed the deal with Bert Bayes, a studio owner in Mississippi. I was astounded because he did not talk about the equipment unless Bert asked a specific question, the rest of the time carrying on about golf, sunday school, etc. It was a profound capital equipment sales lesson. So I hooked up with my first studio sale to a songwriter named Even Stevens who was living in his jeep in the alleys of music row and had gotten a job at Deb Dave Briarpatch publishing run my Jim Malloy who started it from scratch. He signed a writer who wanted to be an artist that had an Elvis cut. He wrote "Kentucky Rain" Jim signed him to a management/publishing deal. His name was Eddie Rabbit.
So as I was rolling out the Tascam 8 track reel to reel on a two wheeler, the lead tech for the company, George Juodenas, asked me what I was doing. "I'm delivering this 8 track to Deb Dave Briarpatch!" "Not yet you're not, we have to take it out the box, warm it up, and mechanically and electrically align it." "Right Now? Can I watch?' George said sure and that is the day he started being my technical mentor. George moved to Nashville from New York, where he earned an associate degree from the Institute of Audio Research, then was employed 4 and a half years at A&R Recording Studio as one of Phil Ramone's assistants. We ended up becoming partners, and struck out on our own. We blazed a trail through the Nashville studios, working with the biggest and the best and over the course of 7 years sold and installed studios such as Emerald, Marty Robbins Recording, Warner Brothers Loft, Warner Chappell Music, House of Gold Music, Silverline Goldline, Music City Music Hall, Bradley's Barn, and many others. After seven years, our style of pro audio sales became obsolete. By that I mean if you bought from us, you got the whole tamale. We calibrated and tweaked every piece of equipment we sold. You did not get your studio until we were done with it, testing every component for absolute polarity, a time consuming process. People who did not understand such fanaticism wanted the equipment in the box, unopened, along with a lower price. So we exited the business in 1985, when Tascam, one of our primary lines opened up a stereo store 3 blocks from our office.
In 1986 on a chance phone call I became a Regional Manager for Mitsubishi Pro Audio Group. Mitsubishi had developed a digital 32 track recorder, bought the Quad Eight console company along with Westrex film audio equipment manufacturers and opened a San Fernando CA as well as New York, London, and Toronto offices. I ran the "mid America" office from Nashville, covering from Key West to Chicago to El Paso. Before I started I had a month of training in California spending a week each at Hanna Barberra, The Burbank Studios, Conway Recording, and the last week at Skywalker Ranch in northern CA. Whew, that will never be repeated. So the last show I worked for Mitsubishi we were in Los Angeles for the AES convention. The convention had moved from the LA Hilton to the convention center downtown, where I was based, but there was a shuttle to the Hilton where 10 manufacturers had displays. On Sunday I had a break and rode the shuttle to check it out. Yamaha was the first and only exhibitor I remember there. I walked in and all these guys where oohing over this small mixer. I asked what the big deal was and they said it was a digital mixer. I asked how much and they said $4000.00 which shocked me. At the time I was a denizen of the top recording facilities in the world. They were the only ones who could afford our stuff. For example the 32 track meter bridge which mounted on the remote control sold for $10,000.00. Right then I was Yamahaed that is they blew me away with a demo. They had 2 of the 8 channel mixers cascaded, aTX816 (eight DX-7 synthesizers in a rack, an RX-8 drum machine, and all parameters of all equipment were under control of a QX-1 sequencer. Automated mix down and recorded performance simultaneously. It was a smackdown, I was blown away. I immediately commented to them that if they kept this up, they would take over the top recording studio market. They looked at me with a puzzled look, they hadn't considered that prospect. I knew that Mitsubishi Pro Audio Group was coming to a close, once you sell all the studios at the top of the pyramid, the second and third levels down could not afford the hardware. So when I got back to Nashville I called an old friend, Larry Padgett who owned Music Man (a music store) that was the high tech store of Nashville. I used to spend Saturday afternoons there toying with the synthesizers at the time I was running my own company. Music Man was a Yamaha dealer (they sold 2,000 DX-7's when they were the rage at $2000.00 a pop.) I asked him if he had heard about the new digital mixers, he said no, and that I should come talk with him. I did and he offered the job of Store Manager. I stayed there 4 years and became the top Fostex salesman in America (the E-16 a 16 track 1/2" recorder sold for $6000.00 at the time, I sold a couple of dozen of them in packages to songwriters, publishing companies etc.) I was used to selling 30,000.00 a month for years, but it came to a crashing halt with the introduction of the Alesis digital 8 track, the ADAT. Alesis announced its arrival at a January NAMM show, but didn't deliver for a year. Everyone in the market was paralyzed, fearing their investment in analog gear would be wasted. (A pity because that analog equipment would still sound good TODAY.) At Music Man we had a guy who went out to sell church pa systems. He would come to me with his designs, and I would point out mistakes such as parallel wiring of microphones, he would argue, saying that it worked when he did it, but I told him analog was a forgiving technology, but that if he followed the directions in "The Audio Cyclopedia" it would sound better. I was done arguing and he went out and executed his designs, then was offered a job at MUZAK (a good fit ha ha) and left. Larry then sent me out to answer the calls from the churches he was getting so I went out and reversed the actual things I had argued about, and it did sound better and the churches gladly paid to set things right. In a way I was struck by how I had flown so high in the studio world, but then the market successfully separated sales from service. I got calls to come install studios, align tape decks, etc, but always responded with "why don't you call your salesman, he is the one who should service you." so those calls dwindled and stopped. Meanwhile I was doing good old nuts and bolts audio for the churches, and I saw vast opportunity. So I left Music Man and started being an audio contractor that focused on Churches, Businesses, and Custom Residential. That began in 1991 and I was busy to say the least. In 1995 my old partner George called me up and wanted to join up again. So the old team was back at it, we did some crazy jobs (one of which was a ground up design surround sound recording studio a year long project) but also a lot of major Church sound systems, Custom audio in residential homes, and an acoustics job for Precept Ministries in Chattanooga. This was a dolly wonker so I have to take a break.
 
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tesseract

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Welcome, Allen!

Trombone is my favorite out of the 8 instruments I learned to play because it taught me pitch.
 
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Oh yes, I am very sensitive to pitch as expressed in temperment. Temperment is where being in tune truly lies, and it is a thing of beauty to double parts on the same chart and be locked in on every note. I also play keyboards, bass, guitar, and drums. What 8 instruments do you play?
 

Matthew J Poes

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Hi Allen, welcome to the forum. You have such an interesting and colorful path to audiophilia.

I studied guitar and piano myself. I’m not nearly as good as I should be given that I’ve played both for close to 20 years and took lessons or studied in school until I was 23. I think formal musical education can actually be very helpful in learning what sounds good for a sound system. As you mentioned, you learn what an instrument is supposed to sound like.

For what it’s worth, I have never heard a PA system reproduce the tone of any instrument perfectly. I’m general I find piano, brass, and violin to be the most poorly reproduced.
 
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Welcome aboard Allen

We look forward to your participation in the forums.

My one daughter plays the tuba and the other the trombone. Our house is filled with the sounds of music (sometimes not so much) LOL
 

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Welcome aboard Allen, sounds like you will fit right in with us audio junkies. Glad to have you with us!
 
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Welcome aboard Allen

We look forward to your participation in the forums.

My one daughter plays the tuba and the other the trombone. Our house is filled with the sounds of music (sometimes not so much) LOL
That sounds like a good combo. When I was at Tennessee the tuba teacher was Ted Self, who went on to fame as an LA studio tubist whose claim to fame was "Close Encounters" the Spielberg classic where his tuba was used as the communication with the aliens. Unforgettable tone on that one, check it out!
 

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Oh yes, I am very sensitive to pitch as expressed in temperment. Temperment is where being in tune truly lies, and it is a thing of beauty to double parts on the same chart and be locked in on every note. I also play keyboards, bass, guitar, and drums. What 8 instruments do you play?

The ubiquitous recorder in 4th grade started it off. Trombone was my first real instrument, followed by trumpet, baritone, French horn, tuba, piano lessons forced on me by my mother, then a 5-piece trap kit purchase in my 30's satisfied a childhood wish. I'd like to get digital keys, someday.
 

Matthew J Poes

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The ubiquitous recorder in 4th grade started it off. Trombone was my first real instrument, followed by trumpet, baritone, French horn, tuba, piano lessons forced on me by my mother, then a 5-piece trap kit purchase in my 30's satisfied a childhood wish. I'd like to get digital keys, someday.

Like this!
DEE0C882-3FB7-46C7-813B-5CEB6983990D.jpeg
 

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Sounds like you've been around the block a few times Allen... glad to have you with us here at AV NIRVANA :T
 
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Matthew J Poes

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Yeah that’s a DGX-660 with full pedals. It sounds surprisingly similar to a real piano. The built in speakers are surprisingly good compared to what used to come on these. It has great key feel to it, not identical to the real thing, but most of the modulation of touch you would do in real life it will reproduce.

My dad bought it for my 2.5 year old daughter, but obviously I’m the one who plays it. I think you have to expose kids to all aspects of music when they are young if you want them to appreciate it. We’ve taken Katya to jazz shows, philharmonic orchestra performances, ballet, opera, and I play about everything under the sun for her in my listening room.
 

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Hello Allen,

Did you ever spend time with the Mitsubishi home side of things? I think they might have pulled out of the game by then, but they were making some great sounding electronics in the early 80's with the DA series. I sold my DA-A30 about a year ago and have seen a few receivers that I've wanted to pick up.
 

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Welcome to AV NIRVANA, Allen! Glad to have you aboard!
 
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Hello Allen,

Did you ever spend time with the Mitsubishi home side of things? I think they might have pulled out of the game by then, but they were making some great sounding electronics in the early 80's with the DA series. I sold my DA-A30 about a year ago and have seen a few receivers that I've wanted to pick up.
Mitsubishi toys around with various markets, for example I heard their tv story..... they had a CRT design for monitors in their nuclear plants, and realized it might make it in the consumer market. So they sent Yamaguchi (his name) to Chicago and gave him the corner of a warehouse to give it a try. It was a major success, (I actually bought one at Dixie Hi Fi (where I was employed at the time). So they gave Yamaguchi a new moniker, that is "Super" Yamaguchi. Another time I was working an NAB show booth and a Japanese engineer approached me with some small headphones. He urged me to try them out, claiming they were actually digital headphones. He opened the doors of the X850 digital multitrack, which was rolling tape, and plugged them in to a jack on the "ping pong panel". This was a digital output patchbay that we could link two machines together to make digital dubs. The headphones worked, but had crappy tone. I told him I didn't think it would fly in the audio market, and he laughed and said "this is product for digital telephone market, a 50 billion dollar market." so they are always looking for ways to package their technology. An interesting history note, When MacArthur accepted the Japanese surrender in Tokyo bay, one of the demands the Americans made was that Mitsubishi would be split into separate companies. At the time Mitsubishi was the economic engine of Japan, for example Pearl Harbor was brought to us by Mitsubishi aircraft carriers and Mitsubishi Zeroes. So they divided it into autonomous companies, Banking, Shipping, Automobiles, Ship Yards, and Mitsubishi Electric, the division I worked for. Meanwhile their was a Jap riding around on his bicycle peddling transistor radios he made on his kitchen table. This was the founder of Sony. When I was with Mitsubishi, they always had a rotten attitude towards Sony. Two different outfits, for sure....
 
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AudioThesis

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Thanks for that Allen.
 
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Hi Allen, welcome to the forum. You have such an interesting and colorful path to audiophilia.

I studied guitar and piano myself. I’m not nearly as good as I should be given that I’ve played both for close to 20 years and took lessons or studied in school until I was 23. I think formal musical education can actually be very helpful in learning what sounds good for a sound system. As you mentioned, you learn what an instrument is supposed to sound like.

For what it’s worth, I have never heard a PA system reproduce the tone of any instrument perfectly. I’m general I find piano, brass, and violin to be the most poorly reproduced.
I am with you on that, so I have researched like crazy, and the speakers are the main problem, so a lot of the systems I installed used the SLS brand pa speakers. They pioneered the use of ribbon drivers for the top end and that for sure got rid of the honk sound we are all familiar with. I also used digital loudspeaker processors and used them to time align the drivers. I had to use about 300 micro seconds delay on the ribbons to align them with the woofer motors. This really got the focused sound going, and the customers smiled.
 

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Helo Allen, welcome to the forum.
 

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Welcome to Nirvana Allen! Looks like you'll fit right in here! :T
 

Matthew J Poes

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I am with you on that, so I have researched like crazy, and the speakers are the main problem, so a lot of the systems I installed used the SLS brand pa speakers. They pioneered the use of ribbon drivers for the top end and that for sure got rid of the honk sound we are all familiar with. I also used digital loudspeaker processors and used them to time align the drivers. I had to use about 300 micro seconds delay on the ribbons to align them with the woofer motors. This really got the focused sound going, and the customers smiled.

Yes modern DSP and major advances in driver technology have certainly improved things. SLS made a really great line of pro cinema speakers that sounded much better than what I heard from others. Unfortunately they were not widely used.

Things have also changed in the CD/waveguide front too. Thanks to work by folks such as Earl Geddes and later Harman has lead to real improvements in waveguide designs and CD optimization. Today’s CD’s sound better than before and waveguides are night and day different. The problem that remains is more widespread adoption. Even for JBL only their top tier products use the superior waveguides they’ve developed. Nobody uses Earls. The D7 JBL cd is only used on the top tier products. With Dr Geddes, I know he helped optimize the CD’s from B&C but am unsure exactly which models he developed if any (he may have just done some research for them and their engineers incorporated into various drivers). I do know that the DE250 and DE500 are nearly universally acclaimed as among the best CD’s in existence and have a response most done tweeters would be jealous of.
 
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Well one thing to always try is turn off the woofers in a 2 way system and just listen to the top end. I think you will be shocked, and the physics behind the ribbon based driver gives it a much better launch of the waveform. How do you get rid of the "squak" of the compression driver/horn combination? I agree that compression drivers and horns have improved greatly, but they still have to "squirt" their sound through a horn because their diaphragm is not large enough to couple directly with the air.
 

AudioThesis

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I like the ribbon tweeter but the issue I have with it is proper implementation with the midrange. When you take the open and airy sound of a ribbon and pair it with a 'boxed' midrange, the cohesive element between them is lost. This is true even with exceptional midrange drivers in use. One exception I've seen is the Evolution Acoustics speakers. In a panel such as Magnepan, I don't find the same issue.

I've grown to love the integration of the ribbon into Rosso Fiorentino speakers. The ribbon serves as a supertweeter in these speakers, playing only from 25khz to 100khz. Yes, its out of the range of hearing, but its effects are evident. You get the open and airy top end with superb imaging. When paired with the silk dome tweeter and nomex midrange, you get a natural sounding top end as well and stellar transition from the tweeter to the midrange. Another company that approaches it similarly is Dali.

With CD's, I find there to be too small of a sweet spot and a small shift in position can destroy the soundstage. I also find this true of the Tannoy coaxial drivers and any type of horn. I'm not a fan of these types of speakers because you always know you are listening to a speaker - you can literally close your eyes and locate the speakers. This isn't much of an issue in HT, but it is a big issue in 2 channel when you are trying to recreate a realistic soundstage. I have heard a few exceptions over the years with the most exceptional horn speaker I've heard being a custom-made speaker featuring vintage JBL drivers. The first time I heard them I thought they were nice. The second time I heard them I thought they were the first horn speaker I actually wouldn't mind owning. The difference? He replaced the radio shack-esque crossover components with Jupiter components. BIG difference.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Oct 18, 2017
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I like the ribbon tweeter but the issue I have with it is proper implementation with the midrange. When you take the open and airy sound of a ribbon and pair it with a 'boxed' midrange, the cohesive element between them is lost. This is true even with exceptional midrange drivers in use. One exception I've seen is the Evolution Acoustics speakers. In a panel such as Magnepan, I don't find the same issue.

I've grown to love the integration of the ribbon into Rosso Fiorentino speakers. The ribbon serves as a supertweeter in these speakers, playing only from 25khz to 100khz. Yes, its out of the range of hearing, but its effects are evident. You get the open and airy top end with superb imaging. When paired with the silk dome tweeter and nomex midrange, you get a natural sounding top end as well and stellar transition from the tweeter to the midrange. Another company that approaches it similarly is Dali.

With CD's, I find there to be too small of a sweet spot and a small shift in position can destroy the soundstage. I also find this true of the Tannoy coaxial drivers and any type of horn. I'm not a fan of these types of speakers because you always know you are listening to a speaker - you can literally close your eyes and locate the speakers. This isn't much of an issue in HT, but it is a big issue in 2 channel when you are trying to recreate a realistic soundstage. I have heard a few exceptions over the years with the most exceptional horn speaker I've heard being a custom-made speaker featuring vintage JBL drivers. The first time I heard them I thought they were nice. The second time I heard them I thought they were the first horn speaker I actually wouldn't mind owning. The difference? He replaced the radio shack-esque crossover components with Jupiter components. BIG difference.

When properly implemented a waveguide speaker actually has a wider sweet spot than a direct radiator or ribbon. It's a feature only Constant directivity speakers can achieve.

http://www.libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup of WG Speakers.pdf
This is a good article describing the physics of why this is true.

Take a speaker like mine. It's designed with a 90 degree coverage angle. This is defined as having a smooth/flat response off axis that is down 6dbs by 45 degrees to either side. My room is 25' long. The sweet spot would be sitting something like 12 feet from the speakers or so. The speakers response is flat and and only down 6db over a 17 foot width. That is wider than my room. The actual listening area would never vary more than 1-2 dbs. I've only seen a couple direct radiators that could achieve the same thing.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Joined
Oct 18, 2017
Messages
1,903
Well one thing to always try is turn off the woofers in a 2 way system and just listen to the top end. I think you will be shocked, and the physics behind the ribbon based driver gives it a much better launch of the waveform. How do you get rid of the "squak" of the compression driver/horn combination? I agree that compression drivers and horns have improved greatly, but they still have to "squirt" their sound through a horn because their diaphragm is not large enough to couple directly with the air.

The "squak" is not inherent to all horns or waveguides. This was actually the basis of a lot of recent research. It's largely caused by reflections in the horn, especially in the mouth area. Optimization of the profile and the removal of the diffraction slot was found to remove the squak. Very good waveguide speakers such as my own, the Jbl M2's, and some really decent kits actually don't suffer this honk at all.

The biggest problem with waveguides at this point is that none of them really have any response past about 18khz and the larger the waveguide gets the less dispersion control there is at high frequencies. We can argue how audible this is, but it's still a limitation. Ribbons don't suffer this problem. Their big issue has been reliability. The SLS is actually a kind of planar tweeter rather than a true ribbon, which helped but still not as robust as a CD. For home use it's a complete non-issue but for commercial use it's been a problem.

Skips speakers use what looks like a true ribbon. I can speak to its effect but I can say i can't count on one hand he number of speakers I've heard that have as good a soundstage. The air around instruments and their placement was far more palpable than usual.
 

AudioThesis

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2017
Messages
73
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Dayens Ampino
Main Amp
MastersounD Evolution 845, Compact 845, Dueventi
Additional Amp
Dayens Ampino Integrated, Dayens Ampino Monoblocks
Other Amp
North Star Design Blue Diamond Integrated Amp
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
North Star Design Magnifico
Front Speakers
Rosso Fiorentino Volterra, Fiesole
Other Speakers or Equipment
Usher Be-10, T-515; Sonner Audio Allegro Unum
Video Display Device
Sony XBR-75X940C
Streaming Subscriptions
North Star Design Supremo, Venti, Intenso, Incanto
When properly implemented a waveguide speaker actually has a wider sweet spot than a direct radiator or ribbon. It's a feature only Constant directivity speakers can achieve.

http://www.libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup of WG Speakers.pdf
This is a good article describing the physics of why this is true.

Take a speaker like mine. It's designed with a 90 degree coverage angle. This is defined as having a smooth/flat response off axis that is down 6dbs by 45 degrees to either side. My room is 25' long. The sweet spot would be sitting something like 12 feet from the speakers or so. The speakers response is flat and and only down 6db over a 17 foot width. That is wider than my room. The actual listening area would never vary more than 1-2 dbs. I've only seen a couple direct radiators that could achieve the same thing.

A wide sweet spot is not something I've experienced with any CD. I am always able to locate the speaker immediately - even on said JBL's that I absolutely loved.

I have no problem with waveguides. I like them paired with traditional drivers like Amphion and JWM Acoustics use. These are modest waveguides that don't have the issues with the sweet spot I usually experience.
 
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