Floyd Toole's Multichannel Audio Chapter in His Book

Trdat

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
186
I'm reading Floyd Toole's chapter on multichannel and trying to understand what surround sound layouts for music listening is preferred. I will reiterate that my music recordings are not multichannel in any way, I am purely experimenting with different surround sound layouts to increase envelopment.(Perhaps my well treated room is taking the life out of my music)

Anyway, point is that with my available resources at this time I can try 4 speakers in the front or the standard 5.1 layout. In his book these two layouts are highly praised and not much different when compared to the 4 speakers with a centre option which was deemed just as good as the 5.1 with the rear speakers at +120 degrees.

My question is, did the 4 speakers at the front(with or without a centre) use any upmixing or decoding during the experiment?

And if I do go down this track there is no option with JRSS in Jriver to have 4 speakers at the front so I am limited, and I am hazarding a guess that the Jriver JRSS doesn't account for this...?

And lets say I do use a home theatre receiver route, I suppose I can use the height channels for the extra 2 at the front but would the decoding take this into account? And do I need this decoding?
 

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
5,055
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
FireCube for movies and Lenova Carbon X1 for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
I've not done much experimenting with multi-channel music, as my system does a fabulous job of enveloping me in the music in two-channel, but I do intend on trying some native Atmos recordings at some point in time.

It may help to know your equipment and speakers.
 

Trdat

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
186
I've not done much experimenting with multi-channel music, as my system does a fabulous job of enveloping me in the music in two-channel, but I do intend on trying some native Atmos recordings at some point in time.

It may help to know your equipment and speakers.

Well, Im looking at using either JRSS in Jriver or Dolby on my receiver but DSX looks interesting for the front 4 channels. Its the matrix or encoding that I am interested in for the 4 or 5 front channels as it is not common.
 
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.

jtalden

Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
887
Location
Arizona, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
VTV 6 chnl NC252MP P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
And if I do go down this track there is no option with JRSS in Jriver to have 4 speakers at the front so I am limited, and I am hazarding a guess that the Jriver JRSS doesn't account for this...?
The 2 60° speakers of option 'b' are the surrounds. They can connected as such. I use option 'j' it's similar but with the CC channel addition. These were tested with a stereo signal as indicated and I assume if any signal processing was applied it was similar in all cases. I suspect there was none. It's interesting that these measurements show very competitive results to the 12 speaker circular array tested for perceived envelopment.
 

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
5,055
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
FireCube for movies and Lenova Carbon X1 for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
What you call ‘fabulous envelopment’ could be much, much better with MCH. That’s not personal opinion; that‘s the findings of research into the topic.

It would also be much less dependent on gear.

cheers
Yep... "much, much better with MCH" is indeed all totally subjective and based on personal opinions. Just because certain people and/or a group of people like it better, doesn't necessarily mean it will sound better to everyone.

I like SACD and DVD-Audio okay, but not was well as I do two-channel with the same music. My wides are more for movies than anything else. What Atmos I've heard on Tidal thus far has not impressed.

What anyone prefers over another is totally subjective, always has been, always will be. None the less, no one could possibly know if it would be better until they hear my system.
 
Last edited:
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.

Kal Rubinson

Active Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
256
Location
NYC
I like SACD and DVD-Audio okay, but not was well as I do two-channel with the same music. My wides are more for movies than anything else. What Atmos I've heard on Tidal thus far has not impressed.
A lot depends on what you listen to. If it is a live performance, with or without an audience, in a real acoustic space, the capability of MCH/ATMOS to recreate the soundspace is better. Whether one cares for or pays attention to it is another story. Do you think that only movies can do that?
 
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
5,055
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
FireCube for movies and Lenova Carbon X1 for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
A lot depends on what you listen to. If it is a live performance, with or without an audience, in a real acoustic space, the capability of MCH/ATMOS to recreate the soundspace is better. Whether one cares for or pays attention to it is another story. Do you think that only movies can do that?
That may be... don't listen to classical... mainly blues, classic rock and electronic... some Indie.

I'm not saying I won't like Atmos music, just saying I've not heard anything that I cared for yet. The only multi-channel music I've heard that I liked is the Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here DVD-Audio.

It would be hard for anyone to compare what would be better until they've heard my two-channel system... and music vs movies is completely different for me.
 
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
5,055
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
FireCube for movies and Lenova Carbon X1 for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
Never was a huge fan of The Wall, but I might investigate this release, if I can find it at a reasonable price.

Does anyone know of the Amazon Prime HD (download) version is Atmos?
 
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
5,055
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
FireCube for movies and Lenova Carbon X1 for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand

Trdat

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
186
I believe they used discrete MCH recordings, not upmixed. I can’t remember in detail. You just finished reading it: the answers must be in the material you just read?

I’m not even sure if they used music, or specific test signals for the purpose of assessing envelopment and spaciousness. I don’t think that is the point.

The big point being, though, they would have been using the same source material for the ‘surround’ layout and for the ‘front spread’ layout. So I think whatever JRiver does for surround should work equally well for a front spread layout.

Remember not to put the wide speakers wider than 140-ish degrees.

cheers

Unless I missed it, I can't find how they conducted the experiment. He mentions a few times that upmixing is really good these days and works wonders but in terms of the test criteria perhaps I missed it.

So essentially the rear speakers are the front wides in the front spread layout and it adds reflections so any encoding will do okay?
 

Trdat

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
186
The 2 60° speakers of option 'b' are the surrounds. They can connected as such. I use option 'j' it's similar but with the CC channel addition. These were tested with a stereo signal as indicated and I assume if any signal processing was applied it was similar in all cases. I suspect there was none. It's interesting that these measurements show very competitive results to the 12 speaker circular array tested for perceived envelopment.

Yes I read that about the 12 being as competitive as j, k and l.

So it seems my understanding is correct, the front wides are the same as the rears and any processing will be the same.

I haven't tried option J yet, but looking forward to it. I am not a fan of speakers at the rear so perhaps at the front it will be better.

Quick question, Griesinger recommends surround speakers to go down to 40hz to increase envelopment. But if the front wides are just encoding to provide reflections are big speakers necessary? Obviously I will match the timbre of the rest just curious how small I can go? I DIY speakers to no probs in making what I want.
 

Trdat

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
186
A lot depends on what you listen to. If it is a live performance, with or without an audience, in a real acoustic space, the capability of MCH/ATMOS to recreate the soundspace is better. Whether one cares for or pays attention to it is another story. Do you think that only movies can do that?
We have talked about this Kal in other forums and personally I am trying to give multichannel(upmixed) the best shot I can of course its a journey and takes time but with the process of elimination knocking out what I don't like(ie rear speakers) I should be left with something that does help with envelopment that is pleasing to me. I don't have Aura 3D but will start of with standard Dolby and JRSS.
 

Trdat

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Nov 6, 2019
Messages
186
If you are going the AVR route get a 9 channel receiver (I picked up the Onkyo RZ630 for less than $400) and go with 5.1.4. Rear surrounds are less impactful than having 4 height channels.

I got a Marantz AV7005 which is one option I have as an upmixing tool. My preference will be to use JRSS with my UDIO-8 biamping front left, right then use another channel for centre and another for wides. This will give me the opportunity to use very decent DAC's and amps. My second option is to use the Marantz but still bypass the Marantz for front left and use the UDIO-8 into a decent amp for the front left right and then use another channel from the UDIO-8 into the Marantz using it for centre and wides with Dolby up mixing.

This option gives me the great soundstage of my left right and then adds the centre and wides with a typical Dolby up mixing. But I am hoping that the JRSS is good enough that way I dont use the Marantz as SINAD on the Marantz is significantly lower than my stereo DAC's.

Anyway, my point is that your recommendation for height channels is possible on my Marantz so I will play around with my upmixing.
 
  • Post hidden due to user being banned.
Top Bottom