Can You Hear A Difference Between Amps?

[AudiocRaver]

This is a question that has been discussed for ages and will probably never be settled one way or the other. Some experienced listeners insist that you CAN hear differences, and other insist you can NOT hear a difference. Here are the assumptions:

• The amplifiers in question are reasonably well designed, with the intention that they will be good-sounding, transparent amplifiers.
• The amplifier is not being misused or abused in its application.
• The amplifier is not clipping or being over-driven. It is being operated within the range it was intended to operate.

You are invited to place your vote in the following poll. Once you have voted, you may read the comments of others and/or post your own opinion or comments.

 

[AudiocRaver]

There was a time that my answer to this question was NO, but it has become a YES in the last year or two for me. It is important to note that the circumstances and conditions of use for the amplifiers in question can make a difference.

One must consider not just the amplifier's distortion specs and characteristics, but also all the other characteristics that might, under the right conditions, audibly affect output.

Let us know what you think. I will share my own experiences on the topic as the discussion gets under way.

 

[Tony V.]

Im in the same boat as you, I was in the camp that no you could not hear a difference but after doing a swap of two of the amps I personally own (Samson Servo 600 and a QSC MX1500) there was a notable difference in the sound after being level matched. The QSC was warmer sounding and had less crispness to the high end. I actually did not like it. I would assume if I was to re EQ the system this would go away but a straight swap there was a difference.
My thoughts are that the internal processing of the signal through the amps, circuitry and other pathways there is some change in the sound.

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

I don't think it is a yes, no answer, because most of the time I can't, and rarely can I hear a difference that is statistically significant in repeated trials. At least under the conditions posed. There are cases where there are audible differences, but they are more the exception than the rule. There are many more differences when amps are actually stretched beyond their normal operating range and one does not realize it. That happens much more often in my experience. I'd like to see a follow up poll with more options. As it is, I have to say yes, because there are cases where we have been able to reliably hear differences, though not often.

 

[JimShaw]

A few years ago Scott Wilkinson of AVS had a test to see if people could really hear the difference between Hi Res audio files and standard files.

There were three or four different styles of music used for the test. Each piece had two files “A” and “B” to be down loaded and played: One a standard audio file and the other Hi Res. No one knew which file was which.

After listening and deciding which file was standard and which was Hi Res, we were to Private Message Scott with our decision for each piece. Was the “A” or the “B” the Hi Res file for that piece of music.

The out come for my wife and I was: My wife batted 100. She could hear the dfference between Hi Res and standard audio files. As for me, I was able to guess one right. Maybe I should listen to my wife more often.

 

[AudiocRaver]

The out come for my wife and I was: My wife batted 100? She could hear the dfference between Hi Res and standard audio files. As for me, I was able to guess one right. Maybe I should listen to my wife more often.

Not sure how loudly I would admit this around the house.

 

[JimShaw]

Not sure how loudly I would admit this around the house.

this is the ONLY place I would say something like that.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

A far from scientific comparison:
I lived with a stereo SAE A-501 power amp for years thinking it was the cat's meow in amplification. Then at Stereophile's coaxing, I upgraded to a stereo McCormack DNA-1. I tried a few other amps during that upgrade, including an Aragon 4004 and Bryston 4B. Each amp had a distinct sonic signature which made its presence apparent over long term listening sessions. The Aragon excelled with transients, and therefore, did exceptionally well with drums. I found the Bryston to have forward mids that shouted at me. But maybe it was merely the contrast with the SAE's sluggish, bloated nature which magnified the differences. The McCormack was - and remains - the most musical to these ears.

 

[tesseract]

The differences I have heard between properly operating amplifiers used within their limits has been minuscule, barely perceptible. Preamplifiers seem to have more of a sonic signature, in my experience.

 

[Jack]

I used to be way positive on this question, however, of late, I find that to be honest, I do hear differences, but they are much less pronounced than what I believed. I think some of the things that are needed to hear the differences are a system that is capable of most excellent resolution and a person that knows what to listen for. The first one can be bought but the second one takes time and experience. The gents on this forum are quite qualified and will be much more likely to pull those differences, if there are any, out rather well.

I do agree with Dennis that pre-amps are more prone to differences than amplifiers. I find this also to be true with Dac's as well, the differences between these guys can make or break the enjoyment of whatever goes through them.

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

Parsing the "what I believe I hear" and what "real differences" there are is the tough part. The bottom line is always my universal answer that is always correct...it depends. It depends on how you define "hear", how you define "difference", how you define the conditions of the comparison, as well as other dependencies.

 

[Jack]

Parsing the "what I believe I hear" and what "real differences" there are is the tough part. The bottom line is always my universal answer that is always correct...it depends. It depends on how you define "hear", how you define "difference", how you define the conditions of the comparison, as well as other dependencies.

No arguments here Leonard, do we all define "Hear" and difference in unique ways ? This is interesting and may merit its own discussion ?

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

Frankly, it is the discussion. If you can't get down to the assumptions we make when choosing sides on an issue, you are left only with disagreement. When we start to understand what others perspective is that go them to their position, we start to be able to learn something.

 

[Sonnie]

For clarification... is the question can I (me, moi, myself) hear a difference... or do I think "anyone" can hear a difference... or do I believe there "is" or "is not" a difference?

I have not been able to hear a difference myself, but I believe there are likely those who can hear subtle differences from time to time.

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

That, I believe is the point. Until you clarify where your assumptions start about the question, you can't really start to understand what people mean. Hear meaning "what I perceive" or hear meaning "the sound coming into my ears(that some level of measurement or some level of golden ear might detect)". I think any discussion like this needs to have those meanings defined to be useful.

 

[Jack]

Interesting, so I would then put forth that I believe there is a difference in sound between amplifiers and I can hear a difference between some, but most definitely not all amps in any given comparison. Further, I really do not believe someone has to wear the label of "Golden Ear" to detect differences such as timbre or sound-staging that today's measurement equipment cannot detect. As such, I do not believe that "everyone" can/will or wish to hear differences in many products possibly due to a lack of experience, lack of desire, lack of hearing acuity or any other myriad reasons. I believe a poll was put forth on another site many years ago wherein roughly 50% of those answering the poll admitted to hearing differences and roughly 50% admitted to not hearing differences. This is most telling indeed.

 

[Sonnie]

This is most telling indeed.

Assuming they are all telling the truth. I question those stating they hear huge differences... and I read a LOT of it all over the place.

 

[Tony V.]

I know I was very surprised that I heard a difference when I did the swap. Neither amp was at all stressed or running a huge load as the EVs I use are 96db efficient. And even at 300watts per channel on the Samsung those EVs would be so loud that I would need earplugs.

 

[Jack]

Assuming they are all telling the truth. I question those stating they hear huge differences... and I read a LOT of it all over the place.

I think your answer is most telling Sonnie, someone on the opposite side would question those who steadfastly state there can be no differences without having actually attempted to try and we do read that a lot as well. Never the less, I agree, there should not in general be huge differences.

 

[Mark C Flick]

I'm in the sorta camp. All things being equal I can't hear a difference. OTOH, I can hear a difference in bass between my Denon receiver and Acurus A250 when running my speakers full range and pushing them a little. Tighter? More control with the Acurus.

 

[Sonnie]

Hi Mark... good to see you here... and glad to have you with us... it's been awhile.

I think a lot of the differences are level matching... even a few decibels can make it sound like there is a difference in sound. Even I can tell it in some cases if the difference is enough.

I also clearly heard a difference between my Denon 5200 and the Parasound (2 channel setup), but only when I had it really cranking and it was apparent that the Denon was stressed and running out of juice.

From the numerous testing we have done on several occasions, I just can't hear it when level matched at relatively normal levels. Wayne could hear a noise in one of the amps that I could not hear... and he clearly identified it, although it was a faulty amp. I do believe that there are in fact some folks that hear a difference, but I believe they are rare and again those difference are very subtle, not dramatic. Repetitively identifying those exact subtle differences over and over might even be a challenge. Where I really start questioning folks is when they swap out an amp and start yapping how much more bass the bottom end has or how much difference there was in one area or another, some exclaiming "night and day" differences ... that is when I cry foul... with either the person or a faulty amp in the comparison.

Would I give up my Parasound amp for a lesser expensive amp with more power... nope! I feel comfortable with my Parasound and that it is doing the job like I want it to. I know Dennis wants it too, so that makes me want to keep it. Figure that one out...

 

[Sonnie]

So... if the poll is asking me if I can hear a difference, I have to answer no, which is what I did.

If it is asking if anyone can hear a difference, I have to answer yes. I am convinced there are some who can hear a difference.

The poll choices should be:

I can personally hear and identify the differences between two amps based on the qualifications of the first post in the thread.
I can not hear a difference, but I believe there are those who can hear a difference.
I can not hear a difference, and I am not sure whether others can or not.
I can not hear a difference, and I do not believe anyone else can hear a difference... they are fooling themselves.

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

Yes, and while most people assume level matching is easy, it can be very tricky.

 

[Mark C Flick]

Hi Sonnie, glad to be here. I have to agree with you. The differences I hear are pretty subtle definitely not day and night just less, shall we say, boomy bass and pretty much only when being pushed. Though I do have to admit when I was listening to Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man one night at low volume there was just something... distinctive that I'd never heard with the Denon. Something with the drums?

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

Some recordings of Fanfare can be pretty dynamic and demanding in the bass. Chances are the Denon may have been running near its limit of available current.