Alignment of speaker setup in living room

Matthias182

Registered
Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
7
Hello,

first of all, I am completel new here. My name is Matthias and to be honest I am really new to all this topics around speaker alignment in a home theatre. I am seeking for some help on how to do this properly myself.

I did start with some measurements in my room using a Umik-1 attached to my computer. The sound I did send to my AVR using HDMI and the ASIO4All drivers.

My setup currently looks as follows:

AVR: Denon AVR-3500x
Front: XTZ 99.25 MK3
Center: XTZ 99.25 MK3
Rears: Quadral Phase 16
Sub: SVS SB2000

In addition I have a MiniDSP 2x4 between the AVR and the Sub for EQ.

I have attached a file with my measurements. They were taken with a XO of 80Hz in stereo mode and always with the FL as the acoustic reference.

I hope that some of you can guide me on how to best align my speakers.


Thanks,
Matthias
 

Attachments

skid00

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2020
Messages
49
My AV System  
Main Amp
2 x Adcom GFA 555
Front Speakers
Carver Amazing Platinum Mark IV
Your decay times are extremely long... That doesn't look right at all.
 

John Mulcahy

REW Author
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
4,920
Hi Matthias,

The decay times for all your measurements are quite long, that is probably the immediate issue to look at.

Did you already make some adjustments on those measurements? The system delay figure seems inconsistent with the delay estimate for the FR measurement.

You are using very short frequency-dependent windows, that is obscuring what is happening in the room somewhat.
 

Matthias182

Registered
Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
7
Hello,

it is obvious to me, that the decay is a problem on its own. The room is rather large and my wife prefers is rather minimalistic. I am planning for some treatment, but I guess that will nt be enough to cope with the situation appropriately.

Does that completely prevent speaker alignment?

I have not changed measurements at all, the file is straight out of REW without midifications to it.
 

John Mulcahy

REW Author
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
4,920
It doesn't prevent alignment, though it makes it a little harder to see what is going on. I'm assuming you mean phase alignment between subwoofer and main speakers, the alignment tool can be used for that. There are several threads that go through that in detail so worth reading them to get an idea of the process.
 

jtalden

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
735
Location
Arizona, USA
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
You measured the SW using HDMI channel 4 output. That LFE channel does not include the effect of the 80 Hz XO. We should measure the redirected bass to one of the front channels (HDMI 1, 2 or 3). Just disconnect the main speaker on that channel so only the redirected bass is measured.

The minimum data needed to do the job for the front 3 mains is:
  1. FL (alone)
  2. FR (alone)
  3. CC (alone)
  4. SW (alone, using HDMI 1 or 2)
I suggest running the AVR automated setup routine first (Audyssey?) and then take these REW measurements. We can do the analysis to see is the XO timing was set favorably and make an adjustment if necessary.
 

Matthias182

Registered
Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
7
Thanks for the reply. I was not aware of this specific difference between the channels.

I made now again the measurements you asked for. The attached files have two sets of four measurements (one marked with Audyssey in the name). The SW was made using HDMI 2 with the speaker disconnected. All measurements have FL as a acoustic reference.
 

Attachments

jtalden

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
735
Location
Arizona, USA
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
Thanks.
I used the Audyssey data for this analysis. Below is the FL+FR SPL comparison of the current settings XO delay (blue) to the recommended setting (green).

46049


The change needed is to reduce the delay of the SW by 11 ms. To do this in an AVR we can instead increase the SW distance setting in the AVR by 380 cm.

Note that you can get almost the same improved SPL response by inverting the polarity of the SW without any delay or distance change. The recommended setting shown is only a very minor difference in terms of SPL. There may be some difference in bass sound quality between the 2 settings however. If so, just choose the one you prefer.

I also noticed that you indicated that the XO would be
 

Attachments

Matthias182

Registered
Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
7
Sorry, the last sentence was cut. Can you explain that bit with the Xo again?
 

jtalden

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
735
Location
Arizona, USA
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
Disregard, that just got pasted there by mistake.
 

Matthias182

Registered
Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
7
Would you mind to explain the steps you took to get to this result? Would like to leanr on how to do this myself.
 

jtalden

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
735
Location
Arizona, USA
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
I can help answer an specific questions you have.

It would be best to first read through this thread to get a basic understanding of the process. Practice on the simple examples in Post-27 to get an understanding of the of the impact of changes using the alignment tool.

This XO setup tool is very well suited for use in fine tuning DSP XO settings in mid and high frequency XOs where closer mic positions provide clear results. It reveals which; frequency center, filter slopes, delay, gain, or polarity changes are likely to be advantageous.

For a SW XO setup it is not as easy to use. Due to all the room modes it is not clear what setting will be the most favorable. A skilled user can better understand the reasons for issues in the XO range using this tool and that still can help in deciding what setup changes may be helpful so it is still valuable in that sense. Given a single setup or a casual understanding of the tool it is not really clear to me that this method results in better sound quality vs any of the other good SW setup methods.

If you are a diy hobbyist or dealing with many different setup issues and options it may be worthwhile learning this method.
 

Harrycr

New Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Messages
87
Thanks.
I used the Audyssey data for this analysis. Below is the FL+FR SPL comparison of the current settings XO delay (blue) to the recommended setting (green).

View attachment 46049

The change needed is to reduce the delay of the SW by 11 ms. To do this in an AVR we can instead increase the SW distance setting in the AVR by 380 cm.

Note that you can get almost the same improved SPL response by inverting the polarity of the SW without any delay or distance change. The recommended setting shown is only a very minor difference in terms of SPL. There may be some difference in bass sound quality between the 2 settings however. If so, just choose the one you prefer.

I also noticed that you indicated that the XO would be
Hi Jtalden
You say The change needed is to reduce the delay of the SW by 11 ms. To do this in an AVR we can instead increase the SW distance setting in the AVR by 380 cm

Shouldn't that be add to FL & FR avg as you cant reduce the SW delay?
 

jtalden

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
735
Location
Arizona, USA
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
No, I think increasing the distance of a SW in an AVR will have the same effect as reducing the delay of the SW using an external DSP.
 

Matthias182

Registered
Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
7
Ok, I did try to go through that threat and then tried to replicate what you did with my measurements. But eventually I struggle already with the average of FL and FR.

When I used the trace arithmetic, I do get a different result than you, although smoothing is set the same.
46180
 

jtalden

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
735
Location
Arizona, USA
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
The trace shape is due to the FDW applied to that measurement. 'FDW' is indicated in the legend for measurement 9.

It is likely that there was an FDW applied to FL and FR prior to the summation. If so, the FDW cannot be removed from that trace. It would be necessary to do the trace arithmetic operation again. If the FDW was applied after the summation, it can just be turned off.

Always remove FDW windows prior to trace arithmetic.
 

Matthias182

Registered
Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 8, 2021
Messages
7
Alright, I think I managed to follow the steps you took to do this analysis. However there are things that I still do not fully understand.

First of all, what is my aim: I am trying to configure my speaker setup in my living without making to many changes to the room itself. I am well aware that this will force me to accept compromises. But under the given circumstances I would like to get the best I can.

Here are my questions:
a) We have now aligned the SW with the average from FL and FR. But why not first align FL and FR?
b) How would I now integrate the CC channel into the alignment?
c) You managed to remove the FDW from my measurements, how did you do that?
 

jtalden

Active Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
735
Location
Arizona, USA
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
First of all, what is my aim: I am trying to configure my speaker setup in my living without making to many changes to the room itself. I am well aware that this will force me to accept compromises. But under the given circumstances I would like to get the best I can.
This is the assumption that I try to take when suggesting a favorable XO timing on this forum. I am not in a position to deal with all the various opportunities surrounding changes to someone's XO or room setup.
a) We have now aligned the SW with the average from FL and FR. But why not first align FL and FR?
I have done it both ways. If done individually, there is often a large difference between the L and R due to room mode differences so a compromise delay setting needs to be found. I experimented a little by summing L and R and found that to work pretty well. I don't know if it provides the most favorable case in all situations, but it is efficient in finding a good one. There is no reason not to inspect the L and R individually also to confirm if the setting is a good one. That is what I do in my own setup. If I show the L and R here there are always the questions about what to do about the big difference it shows.
b) How would I now integrate the CC channel into the alignment?
Use the alignment tool. Adjust the timing of the CC rather than the SW. If the CC speaker is a different design, like being a 2-way vs as 3-way, you will have to chose where you want the timing to align; at the XO, at the midrange or at the tweeter.
c) You managed to remove the FDW from my measurements, how did you do that?
I used the 'IR Windows' dialog.
 
Top Bottom