A small A/V entertainment room...

ddude003

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715
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Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid build, Audirvana+, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna & Lumin iApp
Streaming Equipment
Lumin U1 Mini Streamer/Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon & QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
This thread is for the general discussion of the item A small A/V entertainment room.... Please add to the discussion here.
 

Sonnie

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Apr 2, 2017
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4,422
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Monolith HTP-1 Processor (Movies and Surround)
Main Amp
Sanders Sound System Magtech (Dual Amps)
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA-Eleven
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
DAC
miniDSP SHD (Two-Channel Music Only)
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Renaissance ESL 15A
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan EFX Surrounds
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVS SB16-Ultra x4 (music) + PB16-Ultra x2 (movies)
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Magtechs
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-NX9
Screen
Elite 128" Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
Roku Ultra
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
Nice setup... really like the look of the PrimaLuna... almost purchased one of their amps a few years back.

We found that using a hard reflective surface so that the center of the rear waves from the electrostatics bounced off at an angle and back to the primary listening position sounded better than absorption panels. I had absorption panels up... well... still there, but I have two pieces of 2' x 4' x 3/4" plywood with a piano hinge behind them now. I take a laser and place it dead center of the panel, fire it toward the 3/4" plywood with a piece of mirror taped to it... then angle the plywood so that the laser beam hits the back of the seat where my head it located. This might be something you want to try. Wayne thought of this when he was at the house visiting and it works really well with the late reflections giving that little extra depth to the music. Not really a factor on movies.

Not sure if you can see it very well in the pic below, but you can get the idea. I also have to tilt the panel up about an inch off the ground in the front, so that it is leaning backwards. I'll try to remember to take a photo of how it is right now with my new ML's in place... and post it later.

25565
 

ddude003

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
715
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid build, Audirvana+, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna & Lumin iApp
Streaming Equipment
Lumin U1 Mini Streamer/Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon & QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
Hi Sonnie, thank you for your kind words and some insight into how you setup and deal with your MLs...

My MLs are 9'6" apart and the same 9'6" each from the central listening position... Slightly toed in, focused about a foot or so behind the listening position... And tilted forward from the standard speaker stance of 1.5"...

I had listed my absorbers as just base absorbers when actually they are some prototypes of a few ideas I have had over the years... There are 4 absorbers in that photo, the two on the bottom are 4'x2'x4" and the top two are 3'x2'x4"...

The bottom foot of the bottom absorbers are filled with activated carbon and the upper 3 feet are fiberglass, there is a front scatter/strike plate across the entire front to reflect the mids and highs as well as a floppy vinyl mass across the back to further reduce the lows... The top two absorbers are the same as the bottom sans the bottom foot of activated carbon...

I also use two arrangements of organic material placed about where a first reflection would be... These arrangements are of bamboo, and other dried leafy materials... The containers are of wood and filled with sand... I have also thought about placing wood pellets into flour or burlap sacks and putting them behind the absorbers for fine tuning... Did I need 5 or 50 lbs? ;^)

In my listening space, with my system, and my tweaks, I experience a 3D, holographic sound stage that envelops most of the room with an air and sparkle of a live venue... Sometimes feeling like I am in the first few rows and other times like I am on stage with the performers... Given, of course, the recording, mixing and formatting of the music is of excellent quality...
 
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NBPK402

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Your setup looks great, but I am not sure I would call it a small room. LOL
I def like the way you setup the room, and the equipment you are using.
So your corner bass traps have carbon on the bottom ones...how does that work out? Where did you get the carbon, and how did you figure out how to make them?

I read an article a while back that was saying to try out angling your speakers back, and also try to toe them out for a wider deeper soundstage. I have not tried it, but my friend tried it with his LaScalas, and it did help his setup in his 10x12 HT. When I had my ML Sequels, I found d the y sounded the best 2 to 3 feet out from the side, and rear walls...this was in a room of similar size to yours...Now this was back in the 1990s, and a lot of theory have changed since then on setup for home use. I do miss my MLs though.
 
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Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
4,422
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Monolith HTP-1 Processor (Movies and Surround)
Main Amp
Sanders Sound System Magtech (Dual Amps)
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA-Eleven
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
DAC
miniDSP SHD (Two-Channel Music Only)
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Renaissance ESL 15A
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan EFX Surrounds
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVS SB16-Ultra x4 (music) + PB16-Ultra x2 (movies)
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Magtechs
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-NX9
Screen
Elite 128" Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
Roku Ultra
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
Hi Sonnie, thank you for your kind words and some insight into how you setup and deal with your MLs...

My MLs are 9'6" apart and the same 9'6" each from the central listening position... Slightly toed in, focused about a foot or so behind the listening position... And tilted forward from the standard speaker stance of 1.5"...

I had listed my absorbers as just base absorbers when actually they are some prototypes of a few ideas I have had over the years... There are 4 absorbers in that photo, the two on the bottom are 4'x2'x4" and the top two are 3'x2'x4"...

The bottom foot of the bottom absorbers are filled with activated carbon and the upper 3 feet are fiberglass, there is a front scatter/strike plate across the entire front to reflect the mids and highs as well as a floppy vinyl mass across the back to further reduce the lows... The top two absorbers are the same as the bottom sans the bottom foot of activated carbon...

I also use two arrangements of organic material placed about where a first reflection would be... These arrangements are of bamboo, and other dried leafy materials... The containers are of wood and filled with sand... I have also thought about placing wood pellets into flour or burlap sacks and putting them behind the absorbers for fine tuning... Did I need 5 or 50 lbs? ;^)

In my listening space, with my system, and my tweaks, I experience a 3D, holographic sound stage that envelops most of the room with an air and sparkle of a live venue... Sometimes feeling like I am in the first few rows and other times like I am on stage with the performers... Given, of course, the recording, mixing and formatting of the music is of excellent quality...
Sounds like your placement isn't too far off from what I have in my room.

I can't remember if Wayne tried tilting mine forward at one time when I had the Montis or the 13A's... seems like he may have. Might have to try that on these and see what happens.

Very interesting panels you have... sounds like you have it nailed down pretty well.

Love the electrostatics ... they really do sound good when you get them placed properly... hard to imagine anything sounding any better huh?
 

ddude003

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
715
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid build, Audirvana+, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna & Lumin iApp
Streaming Equipment
Lumin U1 Mini Streamer/Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon & QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
Your setup looks great, but I am not sure I would call it a small room. LOL
I def like the way you setup the room, and the equipment you are using.
So your corner bass traps have carbon on the bottom ones...how does that work out? Where did you get the carbon, and how did you figure out how to make them?

I read an article a while back that was saying to try out angling your speakers back, and also try to toe them out for a wider deeper soundstage. I have not tried it, but my friend tried it with his LaScalas, and it did help his setup in his 10x12 HT. When I had my ML Sequels, I found d the y sounded the best 2 to 3 feet out from the side, and rear walls...this was in a room of similar size to yours...Now this was back in the 1990s, and a lot of theory have changed since then on setup for home use. I do miss my MLs though.
Hello Negatron, Thank you... By normal acoustic standards most home-sized rooms are considered "small"...
As for the base traps using activated carbon, in another life I used to develop software/firmware for a several acoustic couplers, think 300, 600 & 1200 baud modems and old telco hand sets... The company I worked for at the time tested many materials, including activated carbon, to fill the devices with... Activated carbon was the best for reducing low frequency issues within a plastic box err acoustic coupler... I think Kef even fills their speakers with the stuff...

Activated carbon is pretty common and available in many forms from granules to pellets to being embedded in various filters... It is in wide use in water and air filtering systems... Just search with google and you will be amazed...

I just used zippered freezer bags to hold the stuff and placed enough into the absorber frame to fill a one 1' x 2' area...

The Martin Logan hybrid speakers have a curved electrostatic panel which disperses the sound waves into an outward direction in the front and a focal/crossed path in the rear... They also direct less energy to the sides, unlike most speakers... In many models the panels are made with a rearward tilt to project to sound slightly upward... The legs are adjustable and can be used to tilt even farther back or not so far back... I have mine set so the panel is tilted not so far back and more direct to the listening position... Every room is different as is every set of ears...
 

ddude003

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
715
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid build, Audirvana+, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna & Lumin iApp
Streaming Equipment
Lumin U1 Mini Streamer/Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon & QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
Did you still use Roxul or something in addition to the carbon...or just carbon?
I don't remember if I used the Roxul AFB in the bottom absorbers or the top absorbers or the Owens Corning 705 FRK... Well, it is one or the other or vise versa... I had both... So, yes, there is more that just the carbon in the bottom absorbers... And then there is the extra tricks as described above...

Aren't those LaScalas pretty big horn loaded speakers? I would imagine they would be a little too much for many small rooms... I would also guess that there is a lot of sound wrapping around them and other issues with directionality... Way back when, I used to have some Altec Lansing Voice of the Theaters, another great horn hybrid, that were great sounding in halls and medium sized venues but were for crap in the garage or a small room...

Most of the Martin Logan Electrostatic panels are a Curvilinear Line Source... Quite a different beast then a boxed speaker or a horn loaded hybrid... Horses for courses.. ;^) Once you get them into the room, placement is everything, they are amazing... Although, I doubt they could hack it in a hall or larger venue... -trying to envision an array of ML Neoliths- :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

ddude003

Active Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
715
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid build, Audirvana+, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna & Lumin iApp
Streaming Equipment
Lumin U1 Mini Streamer/Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon & QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
Sounds like your placement isn't too far off from what I have in my room.

I can't remember if Wayne tried tilting mine forward at one time when I had the Montis or the 13A's... seems like he may have. Might have to try that on these and see what happens.

Very interesting panels you have... sounds like you have it nailed down pretty well.

Love the electrostatics ... they really do sound good when you get them placed properly... hard to imagine anything sounding any better huh?
Sonnie,

I think that your Classic ESL 9's have the same backwards tilt as my ESL's at 5 degrees... I have mine adjusted to only tilt backwards by 2.5 degrees... Adjustments, of the feet, to the tilting of the speakers can enhance clarity and precision...

Of course, your speakers in your room will most likely need a different adjustment...

And, yes... Even better than headphones... :cool:
 
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NBPK402

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I don't remember if I used the Roxul AFB in the bottom absorbers or the top absorbers or the Owens Corning 705 FRK... Well, it is one or the other or vise versa... I had both... So, yes, there is more that just the carbon in the bottom absorbers... And then there is the extra tricks as described above...

Aren't those LaScalas pretty big horn loaded speakers? I would imagine they would be a little too much for many small rooms... I would also guess that there is a lot of sound wrapping around them and other issues with directionality... Way back when, I used to have some Altec Lansing Voice of the Theaters, another great horn hybrid, that were great sounding in halls and medium sized venues but were for crap in the garage or a small room...

Most of the Martin Logan Electrostatic panels are a Curvilinear Line Source... Quite a different beast then a boxed speaker or a horn loaded hybrid... Horses for courses.. ;^) Once you get them into the room, placement is everything, they are amazing... Although, I doubt they could hack it in a hall or larger venue... -trying to envision an array of ML Neoliths- :rolleyes:
Back in 1989... I went to a Audio show in the Bay Area, and I heard the top of the line ML Statements with a stack of Threshold mono amps....AWESOME! The speakers were about 4' wide stats, and I think over 6' tall, and they were $55,000 as I recall..
I used to have ala Scalas...at one time we had them in a dorm room! Now I have k402 horns modded to MEHs.
 
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