need a consultant

MatthewDougherty

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I have an unusual room, 6m dome, that I built for 360-video & immersive-viz content production. Early into construction I kept reading that domes were the worst shape for acoustics, and found no positive reports. For large domes that produce reverberation longer than the Haas effect, this is a no brainer.

The studio is in an art loft that is connected to a bar. I have a deal with the bar owner to keep my studio open for bar patrons. I am getting 2000 people per month coming through it. The studio has a 7.2 atmos system. People use bluetooth to play their music.

I frequently hear comments about the acoustics, how much they like it and that it is the most amazing thing. I have yet to hear anyone object to the acoustics. I decided to investigate this using REW. I have a math, physics & engineering background, a decent understanding of photon and electron wave theory, but very limited acoustics.

My initial REW usage (assuming I am correctly using it) is telling me things I suspected about reverberation at some frequencies. As I dig deeper into the software I am realizing how little I really know and what options I might want to do for analysis. Because of the unique acoustics, I realize I could be going at this the wrong way by analyzing this using typical box-room approaches.

Can anyone recommend a REW consultant?
 

John Mulcahy

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Domes may be problematic because they can focus reflections, but no reason not to analyse their behaviour using the usual acoustic tools. They are not tools for box rooms, they are tools for acoustic analysis. The physical laws aren't changed by the shape of the boundary :) but be mindful that results will vary with location, as for any enclosed space. If people already like how the space sounds what is it you want the analysis to tell you?
 

MatthewDougherty

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Yes, not tools only for box-rooms; the microphones don't lie and the software does not care. The modeling & simulations use box-room designs because they are most common and easier physics; so I don't use those features, because I am less interested in theoretical and more interested in empirical.

what do I want to accomplish?
1) being objectively cognizant of the acoustics. If there is a 600 pound elephant in the room and I do not notice it, the emperor has no clothes. Try to decide if I should use treatment. Or upgrade from MCACC to Dirac, which hit me last night as my next move with low downsides.

2) I have been invited to make a presentation to architects. I anticipate acoustic questions. The basics of the room I should know; but I can defer a lot by saying I am getting professional help. One potential application is conference rooms, people in the dome can hear each other 20ft away as though it was 2ft, it is as though the room equally distributes the sound intensity/density coming from a point source. This effect mesmerizes people, and is usually in the first three things they mention.

3) The people and their judgement: love you one day, hate you the next, and can't remember your name later. Having been gone three months, I was excited to try out REW to see the elephant. I decided to do the MCACC calibration first. I discovered that five speakers where inoperable because the wires were accidentally pulled out since I left. Then I realized, no one noticed! I am grateful people are drawn to the space because of the acoustics, but I thought the draw would be the visuals and VR (which were not in use when I was gone). Understanding this has dumbfounded me as inexplicable.

4) Early on during construction, after the framing was complete and before the walls were put up, people kept talking about the acoustics. One day some strangers came in, one standing in the center of the room said to the other, "I can hear myself inside my head". This got me thinking, could the room help vocalists do better recordings? Getting a singer to nail a track on the first pass with excitement, accuracy and freshness, is like shaving with a new razor blade, a holy grail in recording. There have been a couple opera singers come by and play in it for a couple hours. I am teaming up with a local recording studio to study this, hire some professional musicians to try it out and provide comment. Generally I would expect the sweet spot to be in the center of reflection. I invited an accordion musician friend who I have recorded and helped install microphones into his accordion for live performance, over the last 30 years. I put him in the center, on a wheeled chair and told him to tweak the position for the sweet spot, the acoustic center, he ends up on the edge of the room, which enhances the bass button mix with the keyboard side, a difficult part of the puzzle because the the instrument is constantly moving these two sound generators. That is when I contacted the recording studio he has used for decades, for help to figure out if the recording would be worthless. Knowing room modal frequencies is going to be important in sorting this out. If acoustic musicians like the space, but the recordings are bad, it is a practice room or small venue. If the recordings are excellent, but musicians hate the space; I get a different conclusion.

5) How much of this is a figment of my imagination?
 

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Just a random comment... Have you ever been to the Hollywood Bowl... Its one quarter of a sphere... You have two quarters of a sphere... I would imagine the best Main Listening Position would be in the center and anywhere along the circumference would be a reasonable place to set up your kit... Although 6m is a pretty small room, 683 sq. ft... What is the material that covers the dome? What are you projecting onto?
 

sam_adams

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I have an unusual room, 6m dome, that I built for 360-video & immersive-viz content production.

Since you are in Houston, you should take some time to visit the Burke Baker Planetarium at the Houston Museum of Natural Science. It is a large theater with a sixty foot diameter dome. You might want to call ahead and arrange a private, off-hours tour of the theater so that you can get some idea of how they have their sound system setup and how things sound in a large, 'domed' theater. Additionally, in your area, is the La Porte Independent School District that has a planetarium with a 24 foot dome which is probably closer in size to your space. Again, you may be able to arrange a tour of the facility if you give them a call.
 

MatthewDougherty

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Just a random comment... Have you ever been to the Hollywood Bowl... Its one quarter of a sphere... You have two quarters of a sphere... I would imagine the best Main Listening Position would be in the center and anywhere along the circumference would be a reasonable place to set up your kit... Although 6m is a pretty small room, 683 sq. ft... What is the material that covers the dome? What are you projecting onto?
I have, once, Johnny Cash.

acoustically the dome classifications I see are:
Small<7-10m, small planetariums, portable planetariums made of fabric, rarely seen elsewhere.
Large>10m, typical planetariums, mosques, Brunelleschi dome, generally ornamental for exterior architecture, the interior is the aftermath.

Further distinguished by:
1) Rooms with doom ceilings, pantheon, US congress, cathedrals, mosques; most domes.
2) The room is the dome, not common outside modern planetariums, what I am doing.
3) Large partial domes that open into the outdoors.

The Hollywood dome and ancient greek theaters fall into the latter category. The structure provides natural amplification. For the Hollywood dome using modern electronics, it is more ornamental.

Large closed domes tend to have large echo problems, the same type of problem Sabine attacked.

My studio is ~6m in diameter, ~10ft radius, shooting for 314 sq ft. in area.

double 1/4" sheetrock covered by thick hot mud.

Came across a few technical papers
1) ~2002 paper out of Egypt on how to attenuate echos in large domes/mosques, treat the upper third of the dome. the shape of the dome does make a difference.

2) a masters thesis from an intern at NASA/JSC. They were testing acoustically, small spheres used as space station rooms.

3) a masters thesis on the acoustics of Texas A&M large planetarium in Laredo, theory meets measurement. Upshot, put enough human baffles into the room, the dome acoustics goes away.

Other than that there is not much in the technical peer reviewed literature.

re: projection
For planetariums the interior surface is usually a metal surface made by Spitz, having millions of evenly spaced small holes. You can see them a foot away. The speakers are behind it. Room reflections pass through it, treatment is put in this area behind the screen if needed.

I am projecting on a 50% gray, 50% reflectivity paint, sherwin williams commercial grade flat. Reflectivity of light and sound is a design issue. Ironically most have a very minimalistic sound system, mono, stereo or occasionally 5.1, but most content is done in stereo. Most technical attention is on multi-projectors (5-10) and the integrated calibration to feather them together; until recently this was done slow, manually. I looked at high end screen paints (silver & diamond) which get the reflectivity over 2 at >$500/gallon, but for domes, high reflectivity turns up the ambient light which kills the contrast; good paint for flat surfaces. Contrast separates low end projectors from high end. High end home theater projectors usually have relatively low lumens with great contrast at a million, low end have 2x lumens with lower contrast around 10k.
 
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MatthewDougherty

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Since you are in Houston, you should take some time to visit the Burke Baker Planetarium at the Houston Museum of Natural Science. It is a large theater with a sixty foot diameter dome. You might want to call ahead and arrange a private, off-hours tour of the theater so that you can get some idea of how they have their sound system setup and how things sound in a large, 'domed' theater. Additionally, in your area, is the La Porte Independent School District that has a planetarium with a 24 foot dome which is probably closer in size to your space. Again, you may be able to arrange a tour of the facility if you give them a call.

I worked with them for eight years using their mobile domes at conventions, as a collaboration when I was doing electron microscopy molecular visualization. How I got the bug to build my own for optical research and doing content they won't touch, particularly art, experimental, and history.

Searching the museum planetarium world I discovered there is little interest in acoustics beyond the minimum system. During the last renovation, I suggested atmos, ignored. Part of the problem is low attendance, competing against dinosaurs and losing market share. Unlike regular theaters, there is low content turnover, shows can play everyday for ten years, royalties are flat-out 5y, 10y, or life; not by tickets. Astronomy is the mission. How many stories can be told to the general public. Most people who go to a planetarium, only go once in their life as a kid.

It has been a total surprise as to the acoustical appeal, my monthly totals might exceed HMNS attendance, definitely Dark Side of the Moon numbers, and I have a current version. But, I do not charge tickets, my location is low dollar in a art loft connected to a bar. They have greater expenses. I am trying to figure out if small dome rooms have architectural application in commercial and residential locations.
 

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Sounds like you are having a lot of fun... Have you used any acoustic modeling and simulation software like Oden or I-Simpa and many others to visualize what is going on in your dome(s)? I also wonder if the traditional Bucky Geo dome is any better or worse than something like a Yert shape... I have seen some very interesting prototype graphic workstations with parabolic screens 3 to 4 feet in front of the "seat", projected visuals into and sound selection into/out of and both...

It might also be interesting to grab some impulse responses from some other venues and run them through your kit with DSP system like LiquidSonics Cinematic Rooms...
 

DanDan

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Some decades ago Ireland opened it's National Concert Hall. The Press etc. widely described the Acoustics as amazing. Designed by the guy who did Sydney Opera House. Well, the Acoustics were indeed amazing. Amazingly bad. Also, the Sydney Opera House has incredibly bad acoustics. There have been multiple attempts to fix it. But it will never really get away from the fact that it is composed of inwardly curved shapes .....
 

MatthewDougherty

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Sounds like you are having a lot of fun... Have you used any acoustic modeling and simulation software like Oden or I-Simpa and many others to visualize what is going on in your dome(s)? I also wonder if the traditional Bucky Geo dome is any better or worse than something like a Yert shape... I have seen some very interesting prototype graphic workstations with parabolic screens 3 to 4 feet in front of the "seat", projected visuals into and sound selection into/out of and both...

It might also be interesting to grab some impulse responses from some other venues and run them through your kit with DSP system like LiquidSonics Cinematic Rooms...
In some ways I am having fun, other ways I am lost in a forrest. I am a newbie on this trying not to get stuck on rabbit trails. When the new 9.2 receiver w/ Dirac comes in I will do the measurements again. This should improve sound played in the room. With the 7.2 system I have now, the sound does not obviously blow up the resonant room frequencies, but they can be seen on REW.

A second line of experimentation will be to put a boom box in the middle of the room as the source, as opposed to the speakers ringing the room. This is when the modal frequencies become very noticeable. Another acoustic phenomena are acoustic shells, kind of like an EQ that is a function of radius. Someone singing as the enter and walk across the space will notice a lot of change in the voice tonality, but someone in a fixed position won't notice big acoustic changes.
 

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Speaking of curved shapes... I wonder why the JBL D44000 Paragon sounds so good?
 

MatthewDougherty

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Some decades ago Ireland opened it's National Concert Hall. The Press etc. widely described the Acoustics as amazing. Designed by the guy who did Sydney Opera House. Well, the Acoustics were indeed amazing. Amazingly bad. Also, the Sydney Opera House has incredibly bad acoustics. There have been multiple attempts to fix it. But it will never really get away from the fact that it is composed of inwardly curved shapes .....
I can imagine. Large domes produce large focus reflections that amplify echoes. But smaller domes are within the Haas effect, causing people to react differently. People gravitate to the center to talk or sing, but I know there are some modal frequencies I would like to attenuate.

I have two different acoustic problems.1) Recorded sound which seems good, speakers ringing the room. Soon I will find out if Dirac can further optimize. 2) Someone talking in the center, which people like but does have noticeable modal frequencies with long reverberation times. People outside the center do not notice modal frequencies with long reverberation times. Those in the center get the impression they are on a large symphony stage. Part of what I want to find out is the implication for recording as opposed to listening. If the room helps singers sing better and they like the room, how can I record it to get the best recording. In mixing I can deal with the room frequencies, to some degree. It is uncharted territory, I know of no recording studios that have domes, they tend to be like anechoic chambers.
 

MatthewDougherty

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Speaking of curved shapes... I wonder why the JBL D44000 Paragon sounds so good?
Could be, not familiar with the speaker. Reading this http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm, Ranger notes "keener appreciation of all the instruments", something I am noticing, the room is the speaker, walking around the room I can pick out the instruments as though I was on stage with the musicians surrounding me. I listen to a lot of live music in clubs where I can move around the room, the room hits me like that. Also noticing something in the dynamic range, got the volume up loud, sounds load and clear, the spl is 90-95. Similar thing with singers, they can sing low, sound loud, or sing loud sounding much louder but not distorted, it is like the room gives them Pavarotti dynamic range.

Thx for the lead.
 
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The Village Recorder aka The Village Studios has some pretty unorthodox studios setup within its converted Masonic Temple...
And then there is Freya Ridings - Lost Without You (Live At Hackney Round Chapel) Love the acoustics here...
 
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DanDan

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I recorded an album with The Monks of Glenstal with Sinead O Connor. They had a new wing proudly designed by Architects. This included a lovely round room with windows looking out over the woodlands and countryside 360. It was intended as their practice space or workshop for singing. We tried but it was utterly unusable for recording Or even practicing. It rang like a bell at a particular note. Haas is of no help with such resonances. As mentioned earlier the Sydney Opera House has disastrous Acoustics. It's large size does not mitigate the problem. I am sure your space is lovely in many ways other than acoustically. Apart from modal/bell resonances perhaps sounds emanating from particular locations may appear at almost the same level in a matching other location. The centre will probably suffer from the most reflections, but close to boundaries may have high level reflections. Such oddities could useful in terms of acoustically distorting natural sounds, but not for faithful recording nor playback. http://www.rha.ie/library.html
 

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I know of no recording studios that have domes, they tend to be like anechoic chambers.

Nobody in their right mind would include a dome in a recording studio. Control Rooms are generally close to Anechoic for at least the first 20mS. Vocal Booths are also close to Anechoic. But all other recording rooms are very far from anechoic.
 

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It is interesting to see some SOTA systems along with some vintage systems showing up in "listening bars" around the world... Japan seems to have gone crazy good with the theme... Jazz bars...

 

MatthewDougherty

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I know of no recording studios that have domes, they tend to be like anechoic chambers.

Nobody in their right mind would include a dome in a recording studio. Control Rooms are generally close to Anechoic for at least the first 20mS. Vocal Booths are also close to Anechoic. But all other recording rooms are very far from anechoic.
thanks for the insights.
What you are saying is consistent with what I have read elsewhere.

The room is intended for visual fulldome production, so I am not put off by the acoustics.
Still confused why people are showing up wanting to listen to music for hours at a time, it is just an empty room.
 

DanDan

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Sorry to be raining on your parade here. But you asked for an Acoustic Consult..... A short analogy comes to mind. Concave boundaries reflect sound somewhat similarly, if you will, to the way a House of Mirrors reflects light. Different and interesting, not faithful to the original. Oddly a NARAS committee did NOT recommend a very absorbent space for Surround Mixing. More oddly perhaps, many of the Dolby Atmos CRs seem to be close to Anechoic. I suggest that being surrounded by many speakers, much closer than the boundaries, may overwhelm the outer acoustic. This could be useful for you...... And now for something completely different. Some fun for you I hope.... Real World Studios have a giant Control and Recording room which appears to have little absorption, but rather massive amounts of diffusive elements. Another, Mixing AND Recording... Blackbird C is 'Ambechoic'. https://realworldstudios.com/2015/08/360-degree-tour-of-real-world/ https://blackbirdstudio.com/portfolio/studio-c/
 

MatthewDougherty

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Sorry to be raining on your parade here. But you asked for an Acoustic Consult..... A short analogy comes to mind. Concave boundaries reflect sound somewhat similarly, if you will, to the way a House of Mirrors reflects light. Different and interesting, not faithful to the original. Oddly a NARAS committee did NOT recommend a very absorbent space for Surround Mixing. More oddly perhaps, many of the Dolby Atmos CRs seem to be close to Anechoic. I suggest that being surrounded by many speakers, much closer than the boundaries, may overwhelm the outer acoustic. This could be useful for you...... And now for something completely different. Some fun for you I hope.... Real World Studios have a giant Control and Recording room which appears to have little absorption, but rather massive amounts of diffusive elements. Another, Mixing AND Recording... Blackbird C is 'Ambechoic'. https://realworldstudios.com/2015/08/360-degree-tour-of-real-world/ https://blackbirdstudio.com/portfolio/studio-c/
no offense taken. I shower naked and sometimes sing in the rain. I appreciate your help. Acoustic engineering is a new thing to me. There is something going on with the room, and it might only be people are enamored with the room's shape; and are ignorant they are ok with 8-bit 16-khz audio thinking the sound quality is great. For me this is a lab-workshop and my background is science. If I end up taking down the chandelier and hanging a wedged pentagonal pyramid diffuser from the ceiling, well some people might prefer golf in their spare time. Kicks keep getting harder to find.

As for the recording angle, if it floats a singer's boat and excites them to perform at a new level that is something special; if the recording is horrible that is something else. Somehow we can put a jet fighter pilot a few feet from an engine and they are intelligible over radios, or deal with the signal-to-noise ratio of atoms when doing x-ray crystallography. For the projector dome optics I kissed $5k worth of glass frogs until a found a lens that obsoleted 20 years of a lesser-quality optical design, done at a cheaper price. But better than that, it introduced me to Frits Zernike's optics. Hopefully this will get me into Manfred Schroeder's work.
 
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