Help treating my listening room

ddude003

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That is clever. I presume the red is the underlying, "before" measurement?
Oops... Sorry answered above... Blue/Green channels are before and Red is after...
And oh, yea... Get out those Red/Blue glasses... 8^) If you have a 3D tv with shutter glasses I can make an interlaced view also...

I wonder if these kind of comparisons can be easily accomplished with REW or if something like this would be in interesting feature to add...
 
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Eric SVL

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I like the idea, but I think it is hard for me to interpret as you intended because it looks like, if red is after, that you increased decay times when in fact, they decreased.

I think a view where the "after" is truly overlaid with no transparency would reveal the extra length of the spikes in the "before" image, thus showing any reductions. I'm sure there are many ways to process and interpret this. The keys are finding what is best and for viewers to learn how to read them.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Maybe I should clarify what I mean when I say "lively". I mean that the reflected sound that reaches me is still very audible in level, as it has not had a lot of time (distance) to dissipate. A larger room would result in less reflected sound reaching me, especially from the first reflection points. So what I would hear would be mostly direct sound.

But good insights overall, and I appreciate your explanations.

Oh I see. Yes I define that term in the opposite way. Having low direct to reflected energy.

The main reason that you see a natural drop in high frequency and rise in low frequencies is reflections. In a small room there is most Hf absorption and very little LF a absorption. That causes the soundfield to have more of the HF energy absorbed in reflections (or even losses in the air), but the opposite in the LF’s. The natural buildup of LF reflections over time causes an increase in LF energy.

It seems counterintuitive but our perception of LF’s requires several periods to identify its tone. At 20hz a period is 50ms. Think about how long that is, how many walls a 20hz tone will have hit before your brain registers it.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Oops... Sorry answered above... Blue/Green channels are before and Red is after...
And oh, yea... Get out those Red/Blue glasses... 8^) If you have a 3D tv with shutter glasses I can make an interlaced view also...

I wonder if these kind of comparisons can be easily accomplished with REW or if something like this would be in interesting feature to add...

Divide one measurement into the other and the resulting measurement is the difference. That is another way to visualize it. You can then do whatever you need with the resulting file. I’ve not tried it but you should be able to still create a wavelet spectrogram from that. It will only show differences, so it may take a bit to wrap your head around what it’s showing (and If it actually made things worse in anyway, it would be pretty non-intuitive).

I still find the best and most intuitive visuals of the effects of treatment to be the bandwidth filtered impulse response. In my SBIR article I grabbed images of before and after and made a gif. The quick back and forth made the differences pretty obvious.

As you know, it takes a lot of treatment to make a measurable difference so when I did that article and a subsequent presentation, I had a lot of trouble creating data that showed the desired effect. I actually stuck a bass trap in a 10x12 office that was massive. I then stuck packages of insulation still in the plastic in the closet and other corners. I added a bunch of 4” panels that were a good 2”-4” from the wall as well. I bet I covered 70% of the corners and 30% or all other walls and the end effect was minuscule in the measurements At LF’s. It showed up in the RT60 and clarity, but not much else. Even the filtered impulses were only slightly different. There was absolutely no meaningful difference in the steady state or waterfall plots.
 

Matthew J Poes

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I like the idea, but I think it is hard for me to interpret as you intended because it looks like, if red is after, that you increased decay times when in fact, they decreased.

I think a view where the "after" is truly overlaid with no transparency would reveal the extra length of the spikes in the "before" image, thus showing any reductions. I'm sure there are many ways to process and interpret this. The keys are finding what is best and for viewers to learn how to read them.

Maybe my before and after gif approach would work here? I found it helpful with the other files.
 

ddude003

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Maybe my before and after gif approach would work here? I found it helpful with the other files.

I was just playing with that... 8^) Touch of fade between helps...

beforeAfter.gif


As Matt said "As you know, it takes a lot of treatment to make a measurable difference"... Your entire back wall is only 1/6th or your cube surface... In my opinion, you will most likely need almost twice that much Surface Treatment in your room... Low frequency and broad band absorption and diffusion...

PS - In case anyone is interested, a few lines of code (read 8) in R made this...
 
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ddude003

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[QUOTE="I think a view where the "after" is truly overlaid with no transparency would reveal the extra length of the spikes in the "before" image, thus showing any reductions. I'm sure there are many ways to process and interpret this. The keys are finding what is best and for viewers to learn how to read them.[/QUOTE]

Eric, I think you could pull this off in Photoshop with layers and alpha channel adjustments... And I don't use any packaged image processing tools (read Photoshop and the like)... I write my own... Or use some libraries in R...

And you need to use Red/Blue glasses to view an Anaglyph image...
 
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Eric SVL

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Eric, I think you could pull this off in Photoshop with layers and alpha channel adjustments... And I don't use any packaged image processing tools (read Photoshop and the like)... I write my own... Or use some libraries in R...

And you need to use Red/Blue glasses to view an Anaglyph image...
Gotcha. I don't have any such glasses handy, but I do come from an image processing background, but it is Photoshop, Illustrator, RAW development, and astro-image processing based, so different than your experience.
 
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Horacio Lewinski

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As Matt said "As you know, it takes a lot of treatment to make a measurable difference"... Your entire back wall is only 1/6th or your cube surface... In my opinion, you will most likely need almost twice that much Surface Treatment in your room... Low frequency and broad band absorption and diffusion...

Understood. Yet, which types should I use for the rest of this wall?
  1. slat absorbers, such as 1/4" MDF followed by 2" fiberglass, airspace of 4"
  2. panel absorbers, such fiberglass panel separated 4 or 6" from front wall
  3. other?
All these can work. But which ones would be more efficient under my conditions?

Of course this is for the low end. Higher up I plan to try diffusion.
 

ddude003

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You could stay the course and build 4 more panel absorbers and you can try activated carbon in your panel absorbers and see how much that helps out too... And/or build 2 of the helmholtz slat absorbers and see what you think of them... They all will contribute to taming the energy in your room... Maybe the WAF will help by putting together some _large_ potted plants/trees in the corners... Put a couple of the bass traps on the back wall too along with your bookcase that acts as a diffusion device... Get them in the back corners if possible... Remember this is a process and only you can decide what is right for your listening space and your journey to A/V Nirvana...
 

ddude003

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Matt had said; "Divide one measurement into the other and the resulting measurement is the difference. That is another way to visualize it. You can then do whatever you need with the resulting file. I’ve not tried it but you should be able to still create a wavelet spectrogram from that. It will only show differences, so it may take a bit to wrap your head around what it’s showing (and If it actually made things worse in anyway, it would be pretty non-intuitive)."

If the before and after measurements are 2 WAV files I can do that difference (divide?) in a few lines (read 15) of R code... 8^) I have no insight into the file formats of REW however...
 

Eric SVL

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If the before and after measurements are 2 WAV files I can do that difference (divide?) in a few lines (read 15) of R code... 8^) I have no insight into the file formats of REW however...
You do have some options:

Export.png
 

ddude003

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You do have some options:

To be more clear, it is much easier for me to use the same internal file formats for round trips in and out of a R script and REW... I'm not interested in learning any new file formats at this time... Keep in mind this whole exercise is a thought experiment about meaningful ways to visualize before and after data... So, I can now read 2 input WAV files and output a WAV file that contains the difference that can be read back into REW to perform further processing like a wavelet spectrogram... Also, have composite difference of the graphic images... All in all these are not very helpful to see what is really going on other than to say that things have changed from before to after... Matt gets it right again... 8^)

beforeAfterDifference.jpg


At this point the best I can come up with is the morphed animation I posted above as post #56...

If others find it useful they could ask John Mulcahy to consider it for a feature enhancement to REW...

I am interested to see the progress Horacio is making...
 

Eric SVL

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Your approach is interesting. I wonder how it would compare to a Photoshop overlay of the images and playing with the blending modes. Done that for other things before. Aligning a dozen lunar disk images of the solar eclipse is not as easy as it sounds!
 

Horacio Lewinski

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Revisiting Alton Everest's book, it reminded me low frequency absorption is more effective using reactive devices rather than passive (as in fiberglass panels attached to the wall or separated by an airspace).

In post #59 I said slat absorber, but confused the term and was in reality referring to a panel absorber, where the sheet of plywood or MDF flexes and absorbs energy reactively. I'm thinking of using such an absorber built into this corner: floor to ceiling between the corner and air conditioner.
20180715_104300.jpg


Per Everest, the resonant frequency of such an absorber is given by:

f0=170/(m.d)^.5

For 1/4" plywood m=0.74 lb/ft^2
In that corner I could easily get 6" airspace behind the plywood, so the resulting resonant frequency would be 80Hz. Everest makes no comment about width considerations, so I'm hoping my 70cm width will not become an issue.

What do you think?

BTW, the other corner in the front wall could take another such absorber, but would be a bit shallower.
 

ddude003

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Horacio, I have been rereading this thread and notice that the plan for the panels that you have already made and the panels you are now considering include the caveat of placement with 6" of airspace/standoff from the wall... Yet, in the photos they are flat against the wall... I was wondering if you have considered this difference in efficiency in your acoustic measurements?

I think that any/all bass absorbers will contribute to taming the energy in your room... The design and placement are of your choosing given your constraints...

The 70cm width should be fine... I would not go below 60cm width for a bass trap myself... In fact my bass traps are 3 feet high and 2 feet wide and 4 inches thick...
 

Horacio Lewinski

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Horacio, I have been rereading this thread and notice that the plan for the panels that you have already made and the panels you are now considering include the caveat of placement with 6" of airspace/standoff from the wall... Yet, in the photos they are flat against the wall... I was wondering if you have considered this difference in efficiency in your acoustic measurements?

I think that any/all bass absorbers will contribute to taming the energy in your room... The design and placement are of your choosing given your constraints...

The perforated panels already built are, looking from the listening position:
Perforated MDF panel
4" airspace
2" fiberglass panel
1/4" MDF panel, against the wall.
In the calculation of these there was no other airspace considered.

The new absorber I'm contemplating for the corner would be:
1/8" plywood or MDF
2" fiberglass panel
4" airspace
Wall or back panel against the wall.

While all absorbers would contribute, my question is what would be most effective to use there, within my constraints. For example I could just use 4" of fiberglass panel against the wall, covered by cloth. But I understand that wouldn't be most effective in absorbing low end energy.
 

ddude003

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Hello again Horacio, It is my opinion, and I have no proof, that your current perforated panels design are/would be more efficient... I have this belief only based on the total mass differences between the two designs you have outlined above... The Perforated MDF panel plus the 1/8 inch difference in MDF the first design give it the edge... Have you thought of adding a layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl or the like to your current perforated panels design?
 

Horacio Lewinski

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Hello again Horacio, It is my opinion, and I have no proof, that your current perforated panels design are/would be more efficient... I have this belief only based on the total mass differences between the two designs you have outlined above... The Perforated MDF panel plus the 1/8 inch difference in MDF the first design give it the edge... Have you thought of adding a layer of Mass Loaded Vinyl or the like to your current perforated panels design?

Thanks for the input. The perforated panel is 12mm (1/2") vs the panel I was planning at 1/8". But if more mass is to be had I could use a thicker panel instead of 1/8".

I thought these two absorbers worked on different principles: the panel being a reactive mass, so added mass indeed is a driver, but the perforated mass working as a Helmholtz resonator so front panel is important as thickness goes rather than mass.

I had not thought of vinyl to mass load the panel. Will look into it.
 

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Thanks for the input. The perforated panel is 12mm (1/2") vs the panel I was planning at 1/8". But if more mass is to be had I could use a thicker panel instead of 1/8".

I thought these two absorbers worked on different principles: the panel being a reactive mass, so added mass indeed is a driver, but the perforated mass working as a Helmholtz resonator so front panel is important as thickness goes rather than mass.

I had not thought of vinyl to mass load the panel. Will look into it.

Horacio, Your welcome... Strictly speaking, a classic Helmholtz resonator is air filled... In my view, filling a Helmholtz resonator with other mass would make it a hybrid device as are your perforated panels containing a 2" fiberglass panel... Assuming the panel is similar to Owens Corning 703/705 Fiberglass Acoustical Board and not a hard nonporous fiberglass plate... So, from my point of view, you may as well fill the thing with any additional mass that is appropriate to absorb bass frequencies... More Fiberglass, Mass Loaded Vinyl or even Activated Carbon as I had suggested before...

Wanders off to contemplate the acoustic properties of Cheetos... ;^)
 
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Matthew J Poes

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Horacio, Your welcome... Strictly speaking, a classic Helmholtz resonator is air filled... In my view, filling a Helmholtz resonator with other mass would make it a hybrid device as are your perforated panels containing a 2" fiberglass panel... Assuming the panel is similar to Owens Corning 703/705 Fiberglass Acoustical Board and not a hard nonporous fiberglass plate... So, from my point of view, you may as well fill the thing with any additional mass that is appropriate to absorb bass frequencies... More Fiberglass, Mass Loaded Vinyl or even Activated Carbon as I had suggested before...

Wanders off to contemplate the acoustic properties of Cheetos... ;^)

Doesn't work quite like that. Think of a speaker enclosure with a port. What happens if you fill it with fiberglass (even rigid fiberglass)? Does the box act like its smaller? Does the tuning frequency change? No. What happens is that the box becomes better damped. The Q drops. For the port itself, the Q drops as well. It just makes it act like a better-damped port.

For a perforated panel, fiberglass behind it is a perfectly fine thing, but the fiberglass properties need to be accounted for in the panel. One way to model this is to model it like a speaker enclosure using free tools such as WinISD. This matches with a more sophisticated pay tool I use. Unfortunately, the only free tools for modeling such panels don't allow you to correctly include the effect of damping.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Horacio, Your welcome... Strictly speaking, a classic Helmholtz resonator is air filled... In my view, filling a Helmholtz resonator with other mass would make it a hybrid device as are your perforated panels containing a 2" fiberglass panel... Assuming the panel is similar to Owens Corning 703/705 Fiberglass Acoustical Board and not a hard nonporous fiberglass plate... So, from my point of view, you may as well fill the thing with any additional mass that is appropriate to absorb bass frequencies... More Fiberglass, Mass Loaded Vinyl or even Activated Carbon as I had suggested before...

Wanders off to contemplate the acoustic properties of Cheetos... ;^)

Ok I take back what I said, this free program DOES let you model the effect correctly. I thought I had looked here before and it couldn't handle the porous absorber portion.

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/helmholtz.php

By chance do you know the flow resistivity of puffed corn doodles? I looked, but it appears nobody has tested this.
 

Matthew J Poes

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The perforated panels already built are, looking from the listening position:
Perforated MDF panel
4" airspace
2" fiberglass panel
1/4" MDF panel, against the wall.
In the calculation of these there was no other airspace considered.

The new absorber I'm contemplating for the corner would be:
1/8" plywood or MDF
2" fiberglass panel
4" airspace
Wall or back panel against the wall.

While all absorbers would contribute, my question is what would be most effective to use there, within my constraints. For example I could just use 4" of fiberglass panel against the wall, covered by cloth. But I understand that wouldn't be most effective in absorbing low end energy.

Ok a few things to discuss here:

Pressure absorbers (Reactive absorbers as you called them) operate best at the pressure maximum of the mode. That means, at the wall typically. As close to the wall as possible. Increasing the airspace lowers the tuning of the device, but simply moving a sealed pressure absorber away from the wall makes it less effective. With the really low modes that these panels are designed to treat, hitting the next pressure maximum would mean like 1/3 into the room or even half way into the room, not exactly convenient.

For velocity absorbers, porous fiberglass panels, these work better at the velocity maximum, which is away from the wall. This is why they work so much more efficiently the farther they are from the wall (thought eventually if the distance from the wall relative to their thickness and flow resistivity becomes great you get comb filtering. These should be spaced away from a wall (and they need to have an open back) but maybe not 1 foot from the wall unless they are built for that.

Adding a membrane of low mass to the front of a velocity absorber only slightly changes their mode of operation. At low frequencies, the added mass causes a greater reactive force against the LF wave than the fiberglass would otherwise have. Think of it as the equivalent of stiffening the spring of a suspension, with the fiberglass managing the damping still. At certain frequencies, the low mass means sound still mostly passes through the membrane and hits the fiberglass being dissipated. At higher frequencies, it reflects. This is still primarily acting like a velocity absorber and they have wide bandwidth.

Place a high mass in front of the fiberglass and suddenly that mass will dominate in the system, making it act better on the high pressure of the wave, rather than the velocity. The fiberglass is still acting as damping and it is still a spring-mass system, but the mass is now that front membrane or panel. The panel is also self-damping, which is why it works with no fiberglass as well.

Keep in mind that a Helmholtz is still a spring-mass system. The air in those holes is the mass. That mass is no different than the placement of a physical mass such as a sheet of plywood on the front.

All of this operates by converting energy from one form to another. From sound vibrations to heat.

Placing a 4" cloth covered panel against a wall isn't that effective at LF's, it just isn't efficient. That is a velocity absorber attempting to convert sound energy to heat energy where the conversion method is least efficient. Think of it as a car, you want to get the best gas mileage and you are cruising along at 55 mph in 3rd gear with the engine turning at 3500 rpms. The efficient zone is 1700rpms, you need to shift to a lower gear to get good gas mileage or slow down. With a velocity absorber, it isn't efficient against the wall, so you need to either move it outward or accept its absorption only at higher frequencies. Increasing flow resistivity increases efficiency for shallow depth panels to a point, but it has its limits.

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/
Playing around with these apps can be helpful to see all of this. I've always loved this site. It has great free tools. It doesn't model multi-layer panels correctly, but everything else is close enough.
 

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Ok I take back what I said, this free program DOES let you model the effect correctly. I thought I had looked here before and it couldn't handle the porous absorber portion.

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/helmholtz.php

By chance do you know the flow resistivity of puffed corn doodles? I looked, but it appears nobody has tested this.

Nice find... And I was just thinking about those puffed corn doodles the other day as some new tubes arrived with those doodles keeping them nice and cozy... 8^)
 

Adhoc

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Use the option Multi-layer Absorber Calculation on http://www.acousticmodelling.com/. Don’t use ”Random incidence”, go on 0 degree ”Angle of incidence”. For Helmholtz model; Miki is based on empirical tests and does probably show more correct values than the other options. Play around with the ”Flow resistivity” and you will find a very low value one like 5000 Pa x s / m² (= fluffy attic insulation = cheap!) is better than more rigid insulation like 15000 and up. For very thin layers of insulation, a higher value one may be an option. Also, check how air space / no airspace behind the insulation can change the absobtion curve. I would fill it completely as insulation doesn’t cost much.

A program which takes more parameters into consideration and is more precise would be Soundflow from AFMG. Soundflow is for the professional market and costs a chunk of dollars but it can be downloaded for a 30 days free trial and evaluation. Link: http://soundflow.afmg.eu/index.php/sf-downloads-en.html

Helmholtzes are OK in the ”mid bass range” and up. For very low bass, panel or limp mass absorbers can work better, but … these are very tricky to tune to the right frequency. Behind the math formulas there are some assumed ”little details” like pistonic motion from the panel, -a plywood panel does not move like a piston as it is (usually) rigidly fixed along its sides. The smaller in size, the less pistonic movement ... With a very flexible surround, read soft rubber strip, along the edges, you get more pistonic action. -Think about how a passive radiator in a speaker is used, you vary the mass at its centre to tune it to a certain frequency, the compliance depends on the properties of the surround. You would need to do something similar to tune a panel absorber, and / or vary the air distance behind the panel. (I have made 2 prototypes, one with rigid fixation and one with a rubber surround with microphone plus insulation inside for damping. Haven’t been able to actually play / measure them yet though as my my fiance’s health isn’t the best right now. Whenever she gets better, I might post some results.)
 
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