Tidal on life support?

ShpongleDMT

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I wouldn't be too surprised. Folks only care about (1) convenience and (2) cost. Whenever I've discussed TIDAL with friends (that I'd consider to be typical consumers), they completely laugh at the notion of paying $20 bucks a month...
 

ShpongleDMT

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I agree that the cost can be prohibitive. Tidal needs more people to care about sound quality, but most people are completely happy with MP3 quality sound. I was thinking about buying into Roon just for it's Tidal integration, but now I'm not so sure.
 

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The reality is that most "hi-fi" experiences have taken a back seat to convenience.

99% of the world shudders at the thought of buying a compact disc... let alone buying a Hi-Res download. And when it comes to streaming, there are both free and very inexpensive multi-user options. TIDALS failure, IMO, is its inability to give folks ready access to improved quality. Most people listen via their phone speakers... or stream via Bluetooth.
 

Matthew J Poes

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I really hope it isn't true and that they do carry on.

A lot of people seem to not realize that the service has multiple tiers and you don't have to pay 20 dollars a month. That is the cost only for the HIFI service, their standard service is price competitive or cheaper than Apple and Spotify. I've talked to a number of people who are very anti-Tidal over the $20 price thing. It's no skin off their back, if they don't care about better sound, they can have equal sound to the competitors for the same price as the competitors. I think Tidal has done a bad job advertising this in their attempt to get more HIFI subscribers.

I've read a few articles suggesting that both Apple and Spotify may be looking into lossless streaming and even HD streaming, so that would be great.

If Tidal goes away I don't know what I will do. I won't buy Apple or Spotify, and I prefer the convenience of Tidal to CD's (or HD downloads). It's also a lot cheaper for someone like me who just listens to a random eclectic set of music.
 

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Funny, Matt. I've mentioned before that (on my system) TIDAL tracks don't always sound as good as CD. I'm still a HiFi subscriber, but there are times that I find myself wondering why I pay $20. The vast majority of my listening is done outside of my set up...and even when I stream TIDAL to my OPPO Sonica, I can't hear a difference.

You had suggested that maybe I wasn't listening to the right versions of an album... possibly true? Possible. But when paying for a premium service, the highest res versions should be easy to identify.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Yeah I know you've mentioned before not finding it to sound as good as CD or (if I understood correctly) better than the lossy compressed format. I really don't know. I've done a number of comparisons and found the differences to range from subtle to obvious, but that is to be expected. The recordings that I find obviously better are numerous enough that I find it worth the expense for now.

So can you tell me more about what you find to be no better sounding? Is it Tidal Hifi vs their lower fi version or Tidal HiFi vs Spotify?

From a purely technical standpoint, Tidal HiFi is the equal of CD and there is no reason for CD to sound better. The format they use, Flac (as I'm sure you know) is a completely lossless format. 100% of the information on the CD is on the flac file. I don't know why it wouldn't sound as good as a CD unless the version of the CD you have is a better version than what you listened to on Tidal.

Now as for MQA (Master quality) that is a different issue. If you downloaded an HD file that is say 24/192 and then listened to the same thing on MQA, while I would be shocked if you could hear a difference, there is at least a technical argument for it. MQA uses a 24 bit 48khz bed file in that instance, and then encodes all of the high frequency information above 48khz using a lossy packing format that is folded into the least significant bits (the noise floor of the recording).

What is it that you hear that doesn't sound as good as the CD?
 

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Have to agree that most want it for as little as possible and with their listening habits quality is not an issue. That said, there has to be enough people on the planet looking for convenience and quality at a very reasonable price to make their business model work, doesn't there??
 

Matthew J Poes

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Have to agree that most want it for as little as possible and with their listening habits quality is not an issue. That said, there has to be enough people on the planet looking for convenience and quality at a very reasonable price to make their business model work, doesn't there??
I don't know how the numbers have switched and if the numbers quoted in the article above account for this or not, but at one point Spotify's free tier was its largest user group by far, which was ad supported and I don't believe sustainable. I know they were taking measures at one point to really get more paying subscribers. If you can't even get people to cough up $10 a month, it's obviously going to be hard to get them to cough up $20.

I think that the late 90's brought a kind of musical entitlement. Suddenly free music became extremely accessible. It was of course pirated and illegal, but it wasn't clear to many people at that time and it was too easy to get. A lot of people of that time period then got it in their heads that music should be free. I think when you combine that situation with the other fact that the music industry went through a kind of commercialization that I think ultimately was bad for business, I think it really has made it hard for pay services to survive.

At this point the biggest thing holding any of these back from really making it is their costs. I'm reluctant to say royalty costs, admittedly artists make very little, but Labels are sitting pretty. If Netflix can make big profits while spending ten's of millions on programming, it has to be possible to do the same with music. The fact that this has been such a challenge really makes me think its nothing more than overly costly music catalogues. It's also possible that economies of scale come into play. I am not sure how much music people listen to vs streaming video. How many members are in each service. I do know Netflix is much bigger than Spotify, Tidal, etc. It may be that their costs to stream are also too high. I just can't imagine that is the main issue. I have a friend that works for the RIAA and it is my impression the biggest issue is catalogue costs. A lot of different people take a cut and at this point there is no profit from things like a Bluray release or theatrical release when it comes to music. The biggest money makers in music are the concerts and combined airplay (streaming, radio, tv play, cd's, etc.). Any one of these formats isn't really large enough to be a huge contributor. I've also heard rumors that they may be overstating CD sales at this point and profits may really come down primarily to streaming, radio, etc.
 

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Yeah I know you've mentioned before not finding it to sound as good as CD or (if I understood correctly) better than the lossy compressed format. I really don't know. I've done a number of comparisons and found the differences to range from subtle to obvious, but that is to be expected. The recordings that I find obviously better are numerous enough that I find it worth the expense for now.

So can you tell me more about what you find to be no better sounding? Is it Tidal Hifi vs their lower fi version or Tidal HiFi vs Spotify?

From a purely technical standpoint, Tidal HiFi is the equal of CD and there is no reason for CD to sound better. The format they use, Flac (as I'm sure you know) is a completely lossless format. 100% of the information on the CD is on the flac file. I don't know why it wouldn't sound as good as a CD unless the version of the CD you have is a better version than what you listened to on Tidal.

Now as for MQA (Master quality) that is a different issue. If you downloaded an HD file that is say 24/192 and then listened to the same thing on MQA, while I would be shocked if you could hear a difference, there is at least a technical argument for it. MQA uses a 24 bit 48khz bed file in that instance, and then encodes all of the high frequency information above 48khz using a lossy packing format that is folded into the least significant bits (the noise floor of the recording).

What is it that you hear that doesn't sound as good as the CD?

Admittedly, I haven't spent a lot of time doing A/B comparisons... haven't really cared that much to do it. But, the few times I've switched things around, CDs have sounded slightly fuller and more rounded to me. Perhaps TIDAL limits quality at times?
 

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Has anyone heard/read anything further about Tidal?
 

Matthew J Poes

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I've tried to dig up more information but haven't been able to.

They are offering 12 free days of Tidal to bring on more users. On one hand, free isn't great when you have cash flow problems. On the other, this is something companies do trying to gain a lot of new users, something you do when you need to bring in a lot of new cash flow.
 

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I really hope it isn't true and that they do carry on.

A lot of people seem to not realize that the service has multiple tiers and you don't have to pay 20 dollars a month. That is the cost only for the HIFI service, their standard service is price competitive or cheaper than Apple and Spotify. I've talked to a number of people who are very anti-Tidal over the $20 price thing. It's no skin off their back, if they don't care about better sound, they can have equal sound to the competitors for the same price as the competitors. I think Tidal has done a bad job advertising this in their attempt to get more HIFI subscribers.

^^^This right here. I am constantly telling the naysayers that there are different tiers and pricing, but it does not often sink in. The onus is on TIDAL to get the word out and they have definitely dropped the ball.

I've read a few articles suggesting that both Apple and Spotify may be looking into lossless streaming and even HD streaming, so that would be great.

If Tidal goes away I don't know what I will do. I won't buy Apple or Spotify, and I prefer the convenience of Tidal to CD's (or HD downloads). It's also a lot cheaper for someone like me who just listens to a random eclectic set of music.

I have an offer in my email box to get Spotify Premium for $.99/3 months. I might try it out of desperation, but would much rather see TIDAL stay afloat, using it as I type this, in fact. If Spotify does go HD, that could be all she wrote for TIDAL.
 

Talley

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Here's my take...

Stream with whatever you want... I use spotify. With that music on my system it's good enough for me to determine if the track is quality. If it is... I buy the disc. Then repeat on another selection.

Nothing like ownership of something tangible.
 

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So it appears that Tidal still going. I stopped using Tidal since I can get Spotify + Hulu for $5.00 a month since I’m a student. I also have Pandora Primium since I got a year for $50.

I did the 30 day free trial for Tidal HiFi, Deezer, Spotify, Amazon Music and Pandora Primium. I had my family and friends come over and listen to the same music/song on all the music streaming providers, and they all did not notice much of a difference. I find it very difficult to see anyone paying $20 a month when thy can’t really hear a difference in sound. May be my set up isn’t good enough to take advantage of Tidal HiFi, but my wife, family and friends are used to Pandora and Amazon Music.

Like I’ve mentioned before, I use Spotify mainly for my BlueSound PowerNode that I’ve got in my garage. Otherwise, my wife uses Pandora and Amazon Music since we get it free for paying the yearly subscription.

Posting a pic of my garage set up.
 

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AudiocRaver

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$20 per month? Are you kidding?

And by that I mean, "Are you kidding, with the selection and the stream quality (lossless), why on earth would I NOT go with Tidal? I listen to Tidal almost exclusively. The only exceptions are:
  • A few artists have not yet released most of their works for streaming, like King Crimson (come on Robert Fripp, it's the way of the future), Tool...
  • Certain albums not available.
  • Certain albums (a half dozen at most that I care about) not set up properly on Tidal, i.e. tracks recorded for gapless replay but Tidal puts in the gaps anyway. Also, one album I love that has no high end at all.
  • Download for off-line play on device - this feature NEVER gets the album set up in the proper sequence.
$20 per month is a steal of a deal for the convenience and stream quality. That's the cost of two albums per month. A new AVR or a pair of budget monoblocks? $1,000. A quality lossless track source? PRICELESS!!

Edit: Streamoing is in its infancy. I am willing to paty a little to help finance its improvments over the coming years. I bet Tidal is around for a long time and gets better and better.
 
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Matthew J Poes

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So it appears that Tidal still going. I stopped using Tidal since I can get Spotify + Hulu for $5.00 a month since I’m a student. I also have Pandora Primium since I got a year for $50.

I did the 30 day free trial for Tidal HiFi, Deezer, Spotify, Amazon Music and Pandora Primium. I had my family and friends come over and listen to the same music/song on all the music streaming providers, and they all did not notice much of a difference. I find it very difficult to see anyone paying $20 a month when thy can’t really hear a difference in sound. May be my set up isn’t good enough to take advantage of Tidal HiFi, but my wife, family and friends are used to Pandora and Amazon Music.

Like I’ve mentioned before, I use Spotify mainly for my BlueSound PowerNode that I’ve got in my garage. Otherwise, my wife uses Pandora and Amazon Music since we get it free for paying the yearly subscription.

Posting a pic of my garage set up.

That's a nice garage system. Is that your main high end listening system or do you have another primary listening system elsewhere? If I was to try and venture a guess as to why you and your family aren't hearing differences it would be the following:
  1. A garage is a very reflective environment acoustically
  2. A garage is probably noisier than a typical listening room
  3. The speakers are not necessarily placed ideally due to a lack of symmetry to barriers and the closeness to one side wall
  4. Most people don't know what to listen for and/or don't want to hear a difference which can make it easy to dismiss the differences that are in fact there (These differences are subtle, which is why Lossy compression works).

I find the difference between the uncompressed FLAC from Tidal HiFi and the compressed version (as well as the more compressed versions from Amazon, Pandora, and Spotify) to be easily heard, but not in all scenarios nor is the difference necessarily night and day. That makes sense, these compressed algorithms are lossy in a manner that takes advantage of our auditory systems masking and limitations. Under many circumstances it shouldn't be obvious (or even audible), but that isn't the same as saying that they are audibly equal. I have a few test tracks I've used that help highlight the differences. One is Gun's and Roses "Welcome to the Jungle." That song's drum beat sounds audibly compressed (less dynamic) through lossy services than it does through Tidal HiFi and if you know what to listen for, is pretty easy to spot.

The primary differences are typically going to be in slightly reduced dynamics and removal of some harmonic information that is otherwise masked. Occasionally some portion of the fundamental is removed as well if the harmonic would take up less space and is known to fool the ear into hearing the fundamental. A great example is that a 20hz tone's harmonics can fool us into thinking we hear the 20hz fundamental even if it isn't there. A lossy track might reduce the dynamic peak of the 20hz tone and rely on the harmonic to maintain the perception of that dynamic. Lossy compression doesn't typically reduce the frequency range of the music to save space nor does it actually reduce the true dynamic range all that much (I've seen anything from 0 to 2db's loss), it just removes portions of the signal that take up a lot of space and can still be perceived through other means. That means that you need a fairly resolving and capable system, a quiet room, and to listen carefully to hear differences. Studies looking at the audibility have shown that under the right conditions such differences are easily perceived, but many companies researching their own compression algorithms have drawn different conclusions (which is in their best interest, so I tend to take their conclusions with a grain of salt).

If you would like to hear what is being removed, what you can do is take a CD track in wav or flac format and then convert it to an MP3 (or similar compressed format) at various compression levels. Then using http://www.libinst.com/Audio DiffMaker.htm diffmaker you can listen to a new track that contains just the difference information. The noise you hear is the information from the original music that was removed by the compression. It is sometimes helpful to listen to these when doing tests (if you really care to do them) on both headphones and on your speakers. If you hear something through the headphones and not the speakers, then you know right away that your speakers aren't able to resolve whatever was removed (My experience is that even really bad speakers can resolve this, but a noisy room might mask it).
 

Matthew J Poes

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$20 per month? Are you kidding?

And by that I mean, "Are you kidding, with the selection and the stream quality (lossless), why on earth would I NOT go with Tidal? I listen to Tidal almost exclusively. The only exceptions are:
  • A few artists have not yet released most of their works for streaming, like King Crimson (come on Robert Fripp, it's the way of the future), Tool...
  • Certain albums not available.
  • Certain albums (a half dozen at most that I care about) not set up properly on Tidal, i.e. tracks recorded for gapless replay but Tidal puts in the gaps anyway. Also, one album I love that has no high end at all.
  • Download for off-line play on device - this feature NEVER gets the album set up in the proper sequence.
$20 per month is a steal of a deal for the convenience and stream quality. That's the cost of two albums per month. A new AVR or a pair of budget monoblocks? $1,000. A quality lossless track source? PRICELESS!!
I'm with you Wayne. For me the $20 is cheap relative to everything else. It has changed the way I listen to music. I'm not tied to Tidal because its Tidal. I'm tied to Tidal because its lossless CD quality (and with MQA, beyond CD quality). When I was a teenager I easily spent $20 a month on cd's, in fact, I typically spent quite a bit more. I have around 600 cd's that I primarily bought between 1995 and 2010 or so. At one point I sold off 100's of cd's so I could buy 100's more because I just didn't have room for any more and didn't want to make room. I've always hated CD's. They aren't like records in terms of their tactile feel, they aren't fun to open and look at. They just take up space, a lot of space. Streaming services are a huge convenience giving me access to 10's of 1000's of albums or more. I used Spotify and Amazon music for years but it was never much of a replacement for CD, and I found myself often supplementing with higher quality sources where needed. Then Tidal HiFi came along and it has allowed me to feel totally comfortable abandoning CD's and downloaded music almost entirely.

I took have had your issues with some bad albums or missing music. They also seem to lose their lease/contract with some albums. It might only be around for a few months before it's dropped. I hope all this improves. The music industry has gotten far too expensive it seems. I wanted artists to be paid fairly, but it's made it hard to have a truly perfect streaming environment (i.e. with all the music you could ever want).

I will say, I must be a weirdo, I've never cared much about the gapless playback thing. Maybe just not enough albums designed for gapless playback that I listen to? People make a big deal about that often, but it hasn't bothered me much so far.
 

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Gapless: For a few albums it is such a critical part of the production. Todd Rundgren's No World Order, where the entire album is meant to be a gapless play, and side 2 of The Tubes's Love Bomb, same issue. It bugs me enough to say something.
 
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GFOviedo

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Jun 20, 2017
Messages
636
That's a nice garage system. Is that your main high end listening system or do you have another primary listening system elsewhere? If I was to try and venture a guess as to why you and your family aren't hearing differences it would be the following:
  1. A garage is a very reflective environment acoustically
  2. A garage is probably noisier than a typical listening room
  3. The speakers are not necessarily placed ideally due to a lack of symmetry to barriers and the closeness to one side wall
  4. Most people don't know what to listen for and/or don't want to hear a difference which can make it easy to dismiss the differences that are in fact there (These differences are subtle, which is why Lossy compression works).

I find the difference between the uncompressed FLAC from Tidal HiFi and the compressed version (as well as the more compressed versions from Amazon, Pandora, and Spotify) to be easily heard, but not in all scenarios nor is the difference necessarily night and day. That makes sense, these compressed algorithms are lossy in a manner that takes advantage of our auditory systems masking and limitations. Under many circumstances it shouldn't be obvious (or even audible), but that isn't the same as saying that they are audibly equal. I have a few test tracks I've used that help highlight the differences. One is Gun's and Roses "Welcome to the Jungle." That song's drum beat sounds audibly compressed (less dynamic) through lossy services than it does through Tidal HiFi and if you know what to listen for, is pretty easy to spot.

The primary differences are typically going to be in slightly reduced dynamics and removal of some harmonic information that is otherwise masked. Occasionally some portion of the fundamental is removed as well if the harmonic would take up less space and is known to fool the ear into hearing the fundamental. A great example is that a 20hz tone's harmonics can fool us into thinking we hear the 20hz fundamental even if it isn't there. A lossy track might reduce the dynamic peak of the 20hz tone and rely on the harmonic to maintain the perception of that dynamic. Lossy compression doesn't typically reduce the frequency range of the music to save space nor does it actually reduce the true dynamic range all that much (I've seen anything from 0 to 2db's loss), it just removes portions of the signal that take up a lot of space and can still be perceived through other means. That means that you need a fairly resolving and capable system, a quiet room, and to listen carefully to hear differences. Studies looking at the audibility have shown that under the right conditions such differences are easily perceived, but many companies researching their own compression algorithms have drawn different conclusions (which is in their best interest, so I tend to take their conclusions with a grain of salt).

If you would like to hear what is being removed, what you can do is take a CD track in wav or flac format and then convert it to an MP3 (or similar compressed format) at various compression levels. Then using http://www.libinst.com/Audio DiffMaker.htm diffmaker you can listen to a new track that contains just the difference information. The noise you hear is the information from the original music that was removed by the compression. It is sometimes helpful to listen to these when doing tests (if you really care to do them) on both headphones and on your speakers. If you hear something through the headphones and not the speakers, then you know right away that your speakers aren't able to resolve whatever was removed (My experience is that even really bad speakers can resolve this, but a noisy room might mask it).

That is not my main system. That’s just my garage set up. In my living room I’ve got the following:

Denon AVR4300
Front left/right Chane A5rx-c
Subwoofer Power Sound Audio PSA-XV15

With my main set up I do notice some audible difference, but not with all songs since some were lossless and others were compressed. However, I was given the option to either have one streaming service (Tidal) for $20 or multiple services for $20. My wife uses Amazon Music and Pandora. I’m only able to use Amazon Music and Pandora at work as well. Plus, since I'm back in school I’ve got Spotify + Hulu for $5.00 a month. I can get Tidal HiFi now for $10.00. I might switch if I can get my workplace to let me use it.
 

tesseract

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Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 2
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Dayton SA1000
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Sony BDP S590 & Pioneer DV-610AV
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JTR NOESIS 210 RT - L/R mains
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Chase SHO-10 - Center
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Chase PRO-10 - Surrounds
Subwoofers
Chase VS-18.1 x 2 - Subwoofers
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Vizio E550VL
Streaming Subscriptions
h/k TC35C/Ortofon Super OM10/Pro-Ject Phono Box S
Tidal Premium is $10/month. Wayne and I auditioned Premium vs. HiFi on my system, preferring HiFi.
 

GFOviedo

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Joined
Jun 20, 2017
Messages
636
Tidal Premium is $10/month. Wayne and I auditioned Premium vs. HiFi on my system, preferring HiFi.

If you are a student, you can get 50% off from Tidal making Tidal HiFi $10.00 a month. If you are in the military you also get a discount.
 

Todd Anderson

Editor / Senior Admin
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Jan 20, 2017
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Emotiva XPA Gen3 2.8 multichannel amp
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Denon X8500H
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AudioEngine A2+
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THX ONYX
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Kaleidescape TERRA, OPPO UDP-203, Panasonic UB9000
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GoldenEar Technology Triton One.R
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GoldenEar Technology SuperCenter Reference
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SVS Ultra Surround
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SVS Ultra Bookshelf
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SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Front, Top Mid-Front)
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SVS Prime Elevation x4 (Top Middle, Top Rear)
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dual SVS SB16s + dual PSA XS30s
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Behringer 1124p; Aura Bass Shaker Pros; SuperSub X
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Seymour Screen Excellence, Enlightor NEO AT Screen
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iFi Audio Zen Blue
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Qobuz, TIDAL, Spotify, ROON
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LG Electronics 65-inch B6 OLED, Sony 65-inch X900F, ZeroSurge 8R15W x 2, ZeroSurge 2R15W x 2
I heard some very non-specific rumblings about TIDAL from an industry insider at CES... but obviously the service is still rolling. I'm a HIFI subscriber, but as I stated earlier, CDs still sound better to me (they just seem to sound fuller/cleaner at higher volumes... which very could have something to do with the internal processing on my gear's part?)... don't know.

I like TIDAL. The HIFI is definitely a premium for the convenience of having guaranteed access to higher quality audio. But, admittedly, I probably don't use it as often as I should for the price.
 
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Matthew J Poes

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Oct 18, 2017
Messages
1,903
I heard some very non-specific rumblings about TIDAL from an industry insider at CES... but obviously they service is still rolling. I'm a HIFI subscriber, but as I stated earlier, CDs still sound better to me (they just seem to sound fuller/cleaner at higher volumes... which very could have something to do with the internal processing on my gear's part?)... don't know.

I like TIDAL. The HIFI is definitely a premium for the convenience of having guaranteed access to higher quality audio. But, admittedly, I probably don't use it as often as I should for the price.

I heard something from someone associated with one of the competitors, so I hold the information with a lot of suspicion, that suggested there are major issues. I even wonder if some of this is intentional misinformation to get customers to jump ship (thinking they will have to anyway) and create a falling domino's effect. Thankfully there may be some more competition coming along as Qobuz should be entering the US market this year. I hope their pricing comes down, it is MORE expensive than Tidal as I understand it. I've also read a few European reviews suggesting its HD files sound inferior to TIDAL. I don't know why that would be, but would be interested in knowing more. I like Tidal and would prefer to see it stick around, but if there exists at least one reasonably priced audiophile music source, I will be happy.
 

tesseract

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Joined
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Lincoln, NE
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-1
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Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 2
Other Amp
Dayton SA1000
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony BDP S590 & Pioneer DV-610AV
Front Speakers
JTR NOESIS 210 RT - L/R mains
Center Channel Speaker
Chase SHO-10 - Center
Surround Speakers
Chase PRO-10 - Surrounds
Subwoofers
Chase VS-18.1 x 2 - Subwoofers
Video Display Device
Vizio E550VL
Streaming Subscriptions
h/k TC35C/Ortofon Super OM10/Pro-Ject Phono Box S
I'd hate to lose my Tidal playlist. Hopefully there is a heads up if it decides to go belly up.
 
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