Need some advice about choosing speakers..

Blade77

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Hello guys im thinking of buying a new home cinema.. probably my AV receiver will be Yamaha 2070 for a 5.1.4 speaker setup, which i have found at a fairly decent price.. my main concern is about what speakers i must choose, considering my space in my living room.. im thinking to go with Klipsch, as i mostly watch movies and im between Klipsch 280F and 260F for my main speakers and between 112 SW or 115 SW. I live in an apartment where sound insulationy is not in at a good level in the condominium..Furhermore for my surround i think i should go with 250S and about Atmos with 140SA modules, because im very skeptical for opening holes in the ceiling.. im uploading some pictures with my living room to get some advice..thanks in advance

IMG_3629.JPG
 

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I think it’s a toss up for the speakers... coming down to budget. Because you’re adding a sub, the fact that the 280F has a larger woofer becomes less of an important point.

Definitely get the biggest subwoofer possible. You have a fairly open space. For me, I’d put my money into the larger subwoofer and the 260F over the smaller sub and the 280F.
 

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Great advice Todd. The sub is more important than the speakers in my opinion. That's where your "bang" comes from in movies. What king of budget do you have?

I would also look at Chanes now line. And he is having a group buy in!

https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/
 
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i waited for the L7's since 2015 or so. I bought the Airmotiv T2'. Thing I am looking at from Chane is the special....https://www.chanemusiccinema.com/3600. Not sure if I can live without it......lolol
 

Blade77

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I think it’s a toss up for the speakers... coming down to budget. Because you’re adding a sub, the fact that the 280F has a larger woofer becomes less of an important point.

Definitely get the biggest subwoofer possible. You have a fairly open space. For me, I’d put my money into the larger subwoofer and the 260F over the smaller sub and the 280F.

what about 260F and 112 SW ? i mean this is the most affordable option,as it costs 450 E less.. yes i have a big space but if i buy the 115 sub i will be heard 4 floors bellow :)
what about atmos installation? im starting to think in ceiling installation..
 

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Beautiful looking space, Blade! When’s dinner? :-)

The 260F plus the 112 sub, IMO, is the least desirable option.

When it comes to subwoofers, bigger doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be blowing your neighbors away. Any sub, big or small, needs to be level matched, meaning if your speakers refence level output is 75dB, then your sub (no matter how big) should also be level matched at 75dB. Some folks like to set their subs a tad higher (say 78 or 80 dB), but not necessary. The idea behind the sub is having a driver capable of moving enough air to adequately get into lower frequencies (and making those frequencies audible).

You can let your AVR set the channel levels through its onboard calibration OR you can go into your AVRs manual channel level settings... turn the volume on your receiver to “0” (zero) and play the AVRs built-in test tone through each speaker. In that case, you need a handheld SPL meter to measure dB from your primary seating position. Easy to do... in fact, AVRs are notorious for setting sub channels too low during auto calibration, so it’s a good idea to have an SPL meter on hand to manually re-check settings.

Have considered forgoing the sub all together and just buying a tower speaker with the lowest frequency response capability in your budget? That’s one possibility.
 

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As for Atmos... do you have anyone living above you?
 

Matthew J Poes

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Have you been able to listen to the Klipsch speakers against other options. I'm fairly brand agnostic as there are always lots of good options. Speakers can be very personal so you need to get something you enjoy listening to.

As for subs, you don't need to match brands. Multiple subs is better than one for best bass, but adding subs adds complexity in setup. Bigger subs can be better as long as they are truly better. That is, a big sub has more displacement per mm of cone travel, but smaller subs can have a lot more cone travel and/or more amplifier output.
 

Blade77

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Have you been able to listen to the Klipsch speakers against other options. I'm fairly brand agnostic as there are always lots of good options. Speakers can be very personal so you need to get something you enjoy listening to.

As for subs, you don't need to match brands. Multiple subs is better than one for best bass, but adding subs adds complexity in setup. Bigger subs can be better as long as they are truly better. That is, a big sub has more displacement per mm of cone travel, but smaller subs can have a lot more cone travel and/or more amplifier output.
I was only able to listen klipsch 280.. here in Greece you can't find a shop to listen and compare, especially in atmos..so I'm a little skeptical buying something that I haven't heard before..and prices also different compared with us prices..the only atmos setup I have heard was pioneer s 73 by Andrew Jones and I the only thing I can do is to prey that klipsh will be better and that they will suit fine my living room :)
 

Matthew J Poes

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I was only able to listen klipsch 280.. here in Greece you can't find a shop to listen and compare, especially in atmos..so I'm a little skeptical buying something that I haven't heard before..and prices also different compared with us prices..the only atmos setup I have heard was pioneer s 73 by Andrew Jones and I the only thing I can do is to prey that klipsh will be better and that they will suit fine my living room :)

I think the best speaker for you is one you like the sound of and offers the best value proposition. If I were in your shoes I think I would want to look for options that you can listen to and are priced well locally.

I don't know Greece well enough to know what's the best value brands around you. I've heard the Pioneet speakers you are talking about. I didn't love them myself. They weren't bad in the right room but they were limited in output, imaging was just ok, and they lacked good bass. My own experience with Klipsch is that they tend to be on the bright side, but are more efficient and play louder.

Once you buy these you have to live with them. Especially if it's something that is hard to obtain. I would maybe suggest giving a budget (in Euros is fine) and then maybe we can suggest a bunch of speakers that will meet your needs in that range. Hopefully at least some of these options are available to hear in Greece. In general no speaker is perfect, they all have tradeoffs. It's just a matter of balancing the tradeoffs so that you are most pleased with what you have.

If you aren't afraid to DIY, that is often the best value proposition. If the idea of building a kit and finishing a speaker yourself is not exciting Im sure there are a number of options you may like.

I would also take a look at the recent speaker test event that AV NIRVANA did. They tested a range of speakers. While those towers may not be in your price bracket, they may have smaller speakers in the line that are. They will likely give similar sound. If any of those brands are readily available in Greece at good pricing, that's even better.

As for atmos, speakers on the ceiling are always better than the upfiring reflecting speakers if you can manage it. If not, so be it, the up firing do a covincing job to be sure.
 

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Yes I do, but my main concern is what is happening bellow me, because the bedroom of the man living downstairs is right under my living room..

Hmmm...that pretty much eliminates cutting in-ceiling speakers into your ceiling. You'll have audio bleed-through and your neighbor up above will be miserable. You could look at some on-wall options or on-ceiling options. Both the XTZ Cinema S2 Atmosphere and the SVS Prime Elevation come to mind. You could also, potentially, look to some indoor/outdoor speakers that come with mounting brackets.

While I don't necessarily recommend modules for Atmos duty, your situation almost seems like a case where an Atmos module would make sense.

As for the neighbor below, you'll definitely want to make sure you properly isolate your speakers from the floor. The last thing you want are speakers bleeding through to the guy down below.

I believe Klipsch sells speakers that have the Atmos modules built-in... those might make for easy integration. And since you won't necessarily be cranking your movies to reference levels, perhaps a 5.0.2 or 5.0.4 arrangement makes sense? Have you thought about nixing the sub?
 

Matthew J Poes

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One way to help minimize sound leaking to the neighbor below is to ensure everything sits on a thick heavy rug and pad. Using a pad with a layer of mass loaded vinyl is best. It isn't perfect but can provide a good amount of isolation to the floor below. No improvement to the ceiling is easily doable without reconstruction unfortunately.

Todd's suggestions are good ones. There are a number of surface mount speakers that could be used. kef, PSB, Klipsch, Emotiva and many more all also make good options.

You do want to keep all speakers in a surround system as matched as possible. Atmos is one area where you can get away with a different speaker to a point. Tonal matching is important but reality is many atmos modules are not tonally matched to the mains and atmos effects are bandwidth limited anyway. If a particular modules form factor works best for you, I'd feel comfortable considering it even if it doesn't match your LCR or Surrounds.

In ceiling speakers with a back box won't leak a lot of sound but I would still avoid this if possible. If you want in ceiling you may want to consider adding a backer box lined with MLV or made with green glue and multiple layers of MDF. Surface mount avoids the entire issue.
 

Blade77

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I think the best speaker for you is one you like the sound of and offers the best value proposition. If I were in your shoes I think I would want to look for options that you can listen to and are priced well locally.

I don't know Greece well enough to know what's the best value brands around you. I've heard the Pioneet speakers you are talking about. I didn't love them myself. They weren't bad in the right room but they were limited in output, imaging was just ok, and they lacked good bass. My own experience with Klipsch is that they tend to be on the bright side, but are more efficient and play louder.

Once you buy these you have to live with them. Especially if it's something that is hard to obtain. I would maybe suggest giving a budget (in Euros is fine) and then maybe we can suggest a bunch of speakers that will meet your needs in that range. Hopefully at least some of these options are available to hear in Greece. In general no speaker is perfect, they all have tradeoffs. It's just a matter of balancing the tradeoffs so that you are most pleased with what you have.

If you aren't afraid to DIY, that is often the best value proposition. If the idea of building a kit and finishing a speaker yourself is not exciting Im sure there are a number of options you may like.

I would also take a look at the recent speaker test event that AV NIRVANA did. They tested a range of speakers. While those towers may not be in your price bracket, they may have smaller speakers in the line that are. They will likely give similar sound. If any of those brands are readily available in Greece at good pricing, that's even better.

As for atmos, speakers on the ceiling are always better than the upfiring reflecting speakers if you can manage it. If not, so be it, the up firing do a covincing job to be sure.
Yes you are right about which is the best speaker..my badger it could be maximum 2000E for 5.1..the main problem is that I ca
Hmmm...that pretty much eliminates cutting in-ceiling speakers into your ceiling. You'll have audio bleed-through and your neighbor up above will be miserable. You could look at some on-wall options or on-ceiling options. Both the XTZ Cinema S2 Atmosphere and the SVS Prime Elevation come to mind. You could also, potentially, look to some indoor/outdoor speakers that come with mounting brackets.

While I don't necessarily recommend modules for Atmos duty, your situation almost seems like a case where an Atmos module would make sense.

As for the neighbor below, you'll definitely want to make sure you properly isolate your speakers from the floor. The last thing you want are speakers bleeding through to the guy down below.

I believe Klipsch sells speakers that have the Atmos modules built-in... those might make for easy integration. And since you won't necessarily be cranking your movies to reference levels, perhaps a 5.0.2 or 5.0.4 arrangement makes sense? Have you thought about nixing the sub?
no i will buy a sub, i just dont know which one.. 12 klipsch, 12 SVS 2000, or 15 klipsch? about atmos modules i think Klipsch RP-140SA should do the trick.. too bad, i was almost convinced to open holes on the celling :)
 

Blade77

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One way to help minimize sound leaking to the neighbor below is to ensure everything sits on a thick heavy rug and pad. Using a pad with a layer of mass loaded vinyl is best. It isn't perfect but can provide a good amount of isolation to the floor below. No improvement to the ceiling is easily doable without reconstruction unfortunately.

Todd's suggestions are good ones. There are a number of surface mount speakers that could be used. kef, PSB, Klipsch, Emotiva and many more all also make good options.

You do want to keep all speakers in a surround system as matched as possible. Atmos is one area where you can get away with a different speaker to a point. Tonal matching is important but reality is many atmos modules are not tonally matched to the mains and atmos effects are bandwidth limited anyway. If a particular modules form factor works best for you, I'd feel comfortable considering it even if it doesn't match your LCR or Surrounds.

In ceiling speakers with a back box won't leak a lot of sound but I would still avoid this if possible. If you want in ceiling you may want to consider adding a backer box lined with MLV or made with green glue and multiple layers of MDF. Surface mount avoids the entire issue.

yes, i was thinking the trick of rug and pad also.. i will use it for sure, otherwise, i will have problems with the man below..whats the backer box ??
 

Matthew J Poes

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A backer box is just a box in the ceiling that an in ceiling speaker is mounted into. If you can live with it, the easiest option for good atmos is actually external atmos speakers. Something like an onwall that you mount to the ceiling. If not, an in ceiling option with a box is fine. The box itself will offer about 10-20db of isolation which is ok but at 70db average, your neighbor might still hear 40-50db of noise. That's the volume of a quiet conversation. With a soundproof backer box you can bring that down to about 30db and that is actually in line with the room noisefloor.
 

Matthew J Poes

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Yes you are right about which is the best speaker..my badger it could be maximum 2000E for 5.1..the main problem is that I ca

no i will buy a sub, i just dont know which one.. 12 klipsch, 12 SVS 2000, or 15 klipsch? about atmos modules i think Klipsch RP-140SA should do the trick.. too bad, i was almost convinced to open holes on the celling :)

So I have to relay a little story because I find this a bit ironic. A few weeks back a friend of mine told me that there are these forums, Facebook groups, YouTuber users that are obsessed with Klipsch and SVS. That this is the go to recomendations to everyone who comes along. This friend asks me if I can stop this madness and get people hooked on some other gear. The stuff he and I use are of such a different world (being diy built and somewhat larger and more expensive) that I know why he feels this way, bit of course we need sane affordable ready to go options like Klipsch and SVS.

I relay that story because I'm assuming you have seen the same suggestions. To that I say, there is nothing wrong with either brand. I'm actually a big fan of the value of SVS gear generally. However, keep in mind that neither is a standout value above all others, in fact a few other companies have started to take that crown I think. Offering really stupendous performance for surprisingly little money. Don't be be afraid to venture out of the box on this.

While I think you should keep these brands on your short list, I would consider SVS mains too, as I think they look like a great value. I would also look at Emotiva's speaker lines and sub lines. Both are great values that I have direct experience with. I would also look at Monoprice subs if available to ship to Greece. They are a standout value.

There are also some high value diy options but you would have to buy sight unseen and build them. Let me know if that interests you.

I'll try to see if other companies look like a good fit for your budget and share as I think of them. There really are a lot of good options. In some ways speakers today are better than ever and offer a heck of a lot of value.
 

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...The sub is more important than the speakers in my opinion.

Really, Tonto? So with a good sub I don't need speakers at all?

Just kidding, of course, Tonto, I know what you mean, that in some cases the dollar priority might be better tipped more toward the sub side than the speaker side. :T
 

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If we want to start teasing here we can make Geddes claim (which I mostly agree with), the main speakers are the most important and should be the biggest investment. The subs should be competent but its better to have 3 than 1, even if that means dividing the sub budget by 3. You can't take this to an extreme. There are limits, the subs have to be competent, capable of meeting your output needs individually, for this to make sense. However, he is right from a sound quality standpoint. There is just no other way to get the kind of bass smoothness and seat to seat consistency of multiple subs with a single sub. Buying one crazy sub may give you more output, but it won't give you better bass.

Sorry Blade77 if this puts any chinks in your plans! Go triple your bass budget now.
 

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Although I agree multipul subs is better, splitting the budget into 3 or even 2 may mean purchasing a set of subs that don't go deep enough. I'm a solid believer that if the sub cannot maintain 20hz at at least 80hz then a single better sub would be a better choice than buying two or three that don't cut it. You can always add another later.
I'm still using a single PB13u and placement was key to making it sound decent throughout the room. (Yes a second sub is going to happen some day but prioritys in other areas of the system took over)
 

Matthew J Poes

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Although I agree multipul subs is better, splitting the budget into 3 or even 2 may mean purchasing a set of subs that don't go deep enough. I'm a solid believer that if the sub cannot maintain 20hz at at least 80hz then a single better sub would be a better choice than buying two or three that don't cut it. You can always add another later.
I'm still using a single PB13u and placement was key to making it sound decent throughout the room. (Yes a second sub is going to happen some day but prioritys in other areas of the system took over)

Hey Tony, that is a common argument against Geddes idea. I think this is a tough area for suggestions because the research is sparse. The research that was done didn't go and test cheap subwoofers against good ones, it tested pretty competent subs and found more was better, and by a long shot. Theory, which in this case has good real world research to back it up, tells us that bass in a small space is dominated by room effects, that what we hear is the bass only after the room has fully molested (This word has two definitions!)it. What that means in practice is that all subwoofers sound the same in a given room, they sound like your room. The differences are in peak output and extension (which you mention). As is often noted, technically any subwoofer can produce any frequency, it just may not do so at a reasonable level. That then leaves us with what subwoofers are capable of meeting your needs in peak output and extension, and can multiples better achieve that than a single.

I would thus argue that there are in fact large inexpensive subwoofers that can reach down below 25hz, which I think is good enough for most people) that are inexpensive. Their problem would be in peak output, it would be too low, and packaging (they would be larger). Multiples of these subs would allow for a big increase in peak output.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-634
That is a good example. It's large size allows it to be fairly efficient at reproducing low frequencies since the large 15" cone won't need to move as much to produce the low tones as compared to a typical 10" or 12" driver. That means the 150 watt amp is going a lot farther. Still, this thing probably can't do more than about 95db's at 20hz and 105-110db's above that point (which is still very loud). Now if you use 4 of these you have spent $800. You have also added 12db's of headroom/peak output to the equation though. Now the question becomes if a single $800 subwoofer could produce 105db's at 20hz in room and more than 120db's say above 50hz. In the DIY world there are options, in the manufactured sub world, I do not believe there are. That isn't even accounting for the improvement in overall response. Not only do you get a smoother response across a range of seats, typically it helps get rid of nulls in any single seat that are often difficult to get rid of with a single sub.

In the DIY realm you have drivers like this:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dcs385-4-15-classic-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-206
Which at just $100 gives a lot of performance for the dollar. It's also quite efficient. A flat response with about a 90db efficiency at 1 watt is possible in a 10-12 cubic foot box tuned to 20hz. It's max in room output would be about 115db's all the way down to 20hz. Distortion would rise or it would be down a bit between 25hz and 40hz, but it would still do 110db's cleanly. Again, now do 4 of these and that's a lot of clean low distortion output.

So then I think the common counter-argument becomes 2 fold: 1) what is the value in expensive subwoofers then, and 2) What do people hear such big differences when they upgrade to better subs. I think there is an easy answer to both of these. The value of more expensive subwoofers is more output per box volume. How many people are willing to put four of those Dayton 15" subs or the 12 cubic foot DIY option? Great that they can do 110-115db's max output, but they do it in a large box most people won't live with. Getting similar performance in a package that is much smaller simply costs a lot more money. The SVS PB13 Ultra would outperform two to three of those Dayton 15" subs in a package slightly larger than one of them. The value of expensive subs is thus allowing someone to get the extension and output needs in a package people can manage. The sound difference people here is the same thing, just because four 15" Daytons could rival a single more serious and much more expensive subwoofer doesn't mean people make that kind of comparison. They typically go from one regular sub to one uber sub and the output and extension differences are extreme.

I'd really like to see a comparison of 4 inexpensive subs like the Dayton I linked here against 1 uber sub to see what are the benefits and drawbacks of each approach. Geddes will argue that the 4 subs will always win, but like I said, nobody ever tested this directly that I'm aware of. I'm certain he is right from the standpoint of bass smoothness, but if the 4 subs are not capable of meeting your output or extension needs and make bad noises from overloading during your normal listening, certainly you wouldn't prefer that to a single uber sub that doesn't do that. Now having used and heard the 12" and 15" Dayton sub I know they don't do that until pretty loud levels, but I also know they absolutely have their limits before the port chuffing and amp clipping becomes audible.
 

Tony V.

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I do agree there are some budget subs that are able to reliable hit 25Hz but I dont believe that is deep enough for movies. I guess thats just the inner me speaking as once you know what is below 25Hz you would never want to go back. For music 25Hz is good but I know many movies even an old one like U571 or War of the worlds you would be missing out big time.
 

Sonnie

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@Blade77 ... what did you ever decide to get... or have you decided yet?
 
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